Punish Crouch Tech and Beyond

gouken

#1

How to punish OS crouch tech after a blocked GF Dive Kick?

Right now I go for hard knockdown, GF Dive Kick that avoids Shoryuken then Low Kongo which works fine, but it sends people too far away to continue the presure.


#2

cl mp. I figured that was the mix up after a blocked dive kick. Basically there are two situations you can do:

-Throw if they aren’t doing anything.
-Kongo if you are 90% sure they’re going to stick out a limb.
-cl. mp to stuff their tech attempt. from there, you can follow it up:

If cl. mp was blocked (you’re +4 because of this):

-Throw
-cl. mp again (doesn’t work on all characters IIRC)
-cr.hp for frame trap
-sweep (completely safe to do. Delay the startup for frame trap)
-st. mp, cr.lk xx hado. That’s something I thought of. Don’t hado if they can react to its startup.
-etc. (possibilities are endless. You could do an overhead, st.hp, or st.hk for instance)

If cl. mp hits (you’re +7):

-cr. HP xx EX Palm -> whatever you want to do


#3

I gotta do C.MP right after the Gf dive kick or I gotta wait a little? the way I do they just block it, I am not beating their Crouch Tech, is just they lp,lk doesn`t come out.


#4

Well if you’re doing it ASAP and they did nothing but block, then you either beat them to pressing out a cr.tech or they weren’t expecting a throw/called a normal move instead. You want them to think you’re going to throw them so in that case I’d delay it more. It’s something you have to adjust per each person you play because not everyone has the same matchup knowledge or experience when dealing with that specific situation.

You know how to time that bit, right? Theoretically anyway?


#5

I don`t know how to time it, I guess its practice time.


#6

personally I think it’s best to “continue” the opponent’s block-stun from Flip Divekick to Cl. MP, and then consider a frame trap. Flip Divekick doesn’t leave a good spacing for Gouken for a frame-trap, IMO, but Cl. MP does. In my experience, player’s are often more than willing to mash out a reversal attack after blocking Flip Divekick, but Cl. MP puts them in such a block-stun that they’re not allowed to immediately mash something out, and so they usually pause, leaving you with more options (for offense).

I try to always ensure that I combo an attack on the ground, after a jumping attack, so they don’t get the chance to mash something out between them. Sometimes Cl. MP is even too slow, so I sometimes use Cl. MK (follow up with sweep, or Cr. MP), or Cl. LK (and immediately a throw) :slight_smile:

I’m not sure there even is a real counter against OS throw-techs, because Kongo will lose to reversals anyway.


#7

just delay your follow up attack a frame or so… or use a frame trap instead.

For example… st. cl. mp > cr. fp/rh leaves a 2 frame gap where you can be reversaled… but it also gives you a 2 frame gap to catch a crouch tech.

A lot of that depends on how the opponent is delaying their crouch tech too… so you may want to do a few things to ensure they are teching earlier than later. I’ve seen times where I’ve used mostly forward throw to make sure they tech early… then I’d switch up to back throw… and since it starts up later… I catch the normal from their crouch tech.


#8

Made this up a while ago. Its in the frame trap thread for a full informational and damage count.


#9

ALL the time! lol and you can keep chaining to push you way out safe.


#10

Below is not really frame trap advice.

Only problem with Gouken frame traps is the SSF4 engine and design that favors armor breaking, invincible reversals. Dek is amazing with his frame traps but since I only play online lag fests on PSN and don’t play often lately and I’m getting rusty, I’m having better results just using the block stun-wait-bait strategy more often than frame traps. ALL Ryus and Adons and Sagats and Yuns and Onis…etc… want to reversal you in between dive kick and cl.st.mp…ALL OF THEM. It’s disgusting and even more disgusting how often they can get it off.

For a long time I thought I needed to dive kick like a surgeon and if I was lacking finesse, I deserved to lose. Coming to terms with SSF4 design has led me to a new strategy.
My new strategy is kind of a brawler type strategy, like when Rocky Balboa goes numb after getting hit 9,000 times in the head:
Test the waters with Dive kick > cl.st.mp…
If they are mashing, I usually get hit. Noted. I actually purposely let this happen again to give them a false sense of confidence. I’ll take 150 points of damage and have to guess on wake up because when I need it, my much superior punish after blocking their reversal near the end of the round, after I’ve whittled them down with zoning, will put them down. If it’s a person I’m going multiple matches with, they stop mashing. Then frame traps come into play better.

So it’s dive kicks all day, let them hit me and watch how they did it, and then eat up some of their bar with zoning. Then, dive kick all day, block their feeble reversal, and Balboa their ass.

Meta game.


#11

nice


#12

This is what I fear too, getting hit by a reversal after the blocked GF dive kick.

Thats the reason why I don`t like to go for c.mp and then a frame trap, is like another window to get hit by a reversal. (against mashers of course)

By the way I have beated some reversals after a block GF Dive kick with Low Kongo. I guess they diden`t mashed fast enough to be a true reversal. It seems to work after low blockstun attacks. (jump mk, jump dive kick, GF dive kick early hit)


#13

Go with it … Feeeeeel the darkside…
Watch any vid of mine on my YouTube channel you’ll see dive tech unmatched by any Gouken …

Anytime I LAnd a sweep you know I’m going Ambig…everyone knows I go for I it even on gief fuck it…Pros scrubs when it’s on point your invincible especially with 3 bars…

PrActice ,gamble with it rely on it , be weary at first before you enter the cold dark tunnel which is your fate…

Nevr leave home without flip…


#14

The key is to make the jump in into close MP a true block string, i.e. can not be mashed. This is only possible in two ways; a, jump in HP/HK or b, meaty safe jump set ups with flip kick (dp+K). If set ups were correctly executed it is not possible to mash the close.MP, which on block provides +4 frame advantage for mix ups, e.g. frame traps with F.MP, anti crouch tech LP kongo, etc.

Jump MK, Cross up MK, Jump Dive Kick, non-meaty flip kick can be mashed afterwards, so either you go for delayed delayed OS tech CR.MK set ups or 3fr close MK. The 3fr close MK can be a true blockstring after cross up MK for example.


#15

I diden`t know it was a true block string, that changes it everything to me.


#16

… as I said, it depends on the set up and does not work for every jump in.


#17

All I need is to work after GF Dive kick.


#18

First of all, random flip kicks will get you punished by good players everytime…

Let’s take a simple example vs. Sakura, as she does not have meaningful reversal. Play footsies and zoning until you score a hard knockdown with cr.hk (immediate ~5 frame safe flip kick) or forward throw (forward dash - hk flip kick - slightly delayed cancel in kick; ~5 frame safe). While coming down watch out for her invincible ex srk (can be blocked), if not you can close MP. Test it in training, it’s easy due to the block freeze…

If done correctly this will be a true blockstring as the meaty flip kick provides enough positive frame advantage on block. In the best case she did somthing stupid, the flip kick and MP hits and provide a hit confirm in max damage combo ex rush punch.

So the crucial point is how you jumped in. While J.HP or J.HK mostly provide enough block stun for a true string, the flip kick need to hit meaty. There are numerous set ups for this and most are of course highly character specific.

Have fun in pmode…


#19

What Mr. Whitt is trying to say is look at your opponent as one big zone. Look at it as the dive kick hitting shallow (ankle/knee area) to deep (head/top of head). The shallower you land the dive kick the more of a safe jump it is and the more of a safe jump it is the more of a block string cl.st.mp becomes. The deeper you land the dive kick (top of head for making shotos whiff dp) the less of a safe jump it is and the less of a block string cl.st.mp will be.

Meaty dive kick on top of head = not a block string
Meaty dive kick on ankle/knee area = block string

You can do your own math at this point. The further up you hit on your opponent with a meaty dive kick the less it becomes a true block string. Through my personal experience I would say if you hit right below the waist and up you will get reversal’d if someone is mashing.


#20

Ty I know about the safe GF dive kick. (everything in my game is to land that hard knockdown or forward throw into the GF dive kick) thats the mix up that wins fights.

Most of the time I fight shotos so I use:

Meaty dive kick on top of head = not a block string

That was my issue.

Another thing not really about the topic but still interesting, trying to find a setup after backthrow to go for the GF dive kick (thats either safe or can avoid shoryuken)

1- jump mp (1hit), then c.hk works fine in most of the cast except those who is hard to do 1hit j.mp
2- d.hp cancel into GF.mk into dive kick, avoids medium and hard shoryuken but loses or trades to lp shoyuken.
3- Anything better??