Punishing whiffed pokes?

I figure i would start this thread in hopes of getting a plausible answer. I understand from what Buktooth and other top player matchs that whiffing pokes like Sagat cr FP and Athena cr FP at high levels of play will get you eaten alive.

The thing I’d like to know is… how exactly do they punish these pokes everytime? Like take Cammy or Sagat or Athena… whiffing their moves leave a very small window to punish them… not to mention they are usually long pokes and force you to use your character’s longer (and usually slower) pokes to punish the whiff… thereby taking longer time to punish.

So my question is… how exactly do players like Ricky Ortiz or Buk or Choi punish most whiffed pokes? Is it intinct or reflex? Like how do they tell walking in and out of cr FP range of Sagat to bait the cr FP… that he won’t just st MK (which is longer)… or that he won’t just run in and cr MK super? How exactly do they just reflexive see Sagat whiff a cr FP and run in and cr MK XX super with Shotos or other such characters before the FP even recovers?

I can punish these pokes… but not to the consistency that I hear that these guys do it. So I’d like to know.

2 things -

  1. Know your ranges.
  2. Use Chun Li.

Knowing your ranges is obvious. You want to be just outside of their poke. But as far as making them whiff it in the first place, you have to condition your opponent., Like, with Sagat v. Sagat, the best way to make him do a fierce is for you to do a fierce. I don’t know why, but almost everyone I’ve seen use Sagat has Fierce Button Envy - they want to prove they have the better Fierce. So if someone actually lands a s.fierce on them, they want to prove that they can land it also. So once you’ve got them in the mindset to do their fierce, you can whiff a s.jab instead, they instinctively try to hit you (because they were thinking you were going for fierce, and were going to hit that on reaction), but that whiffs, so they fierce you again.

A lot of players also dance and try to make you whiff. They move back and forth just outside your range, and even though you CAN’T hit them, they’re making it LOOK like you can. In this situation, don’t do fierces or roundhouses, or anything with lag time. S.Short is good with Sagat… something that recovers quickly just in case.

And by far, C-Chun Li is the most broken character in the game for the above strategies. Say all you want about Bison and Sakura in A-Groove, but Chun Li just has to make you WHIFF a move, and it’s s.strong into bullshit. :lame:

i think it’s a matter of timing…after you see the fp come out, you have time to react to punish…The lag from sagat’s fp means that you can use the hit box from the fist to punish, so i’m pretty sure that as long as you hit a move after they whiff the fp, you’ll hit them clean for a combo.

It sounds pretty easy, but i think it’s a matter of timing, and knowing that after their active hitbox is gone on the move, you can punish them with that box (i know it sounds confusing), the best example is when you psychic dp cammy’s standing rh. You don’t need to a move that has more range to punish, in this case you just need a move with higher priority. In the case of whiffs, you don’t care about priority since the move is completed and can’t hit you anymore.

So in short, it’s a matter of practice and knowledge of the game more than anything

I sort of get what you mean. I mean when Sagat or Ryu do FPs… I can cr MK with another shoto and hit them even though their FPs are longer than the cr MK… but their FPs after it whiff leaves his body out further. I didn’t know that the after the active frames that the move counts as still there, so I can throw out a cr MP and hit it or something like that… I didn’t know it worked like that. I can punish these moves somewhat decently… but I just wanna be able to do it 100% of the time.

Gunter… thanks for the reply, I was afraid this thread wouldn’t get crap for replies… but I understand what you sort of mean, you have to condition your opponent to FP or do the poke you want to punish a whiff. I guess its just amazing how well people like Ohnuki, Daigo, Choi, and Ortiz kinda condition their opponents and react accordingly. I also understand Chun Li and Cammy are excellent characters for poking… but I am more interested in improving my Shoto poke game. I mean I have a decent cross and cr short/st short mixup game with them when I can get that coveted knockdown. I’d like to improve my poking just so I can get the knockdown as quickly as possible in the first place. I’m sure poking with Shotos is a little harder than say walking in and out optimal footsie range with Chun and Cammy and just doing st MP or st RH accordingly to punish whiffs or walk up and throw.

punishing a whiff…

Its all a matter of how much you play the game. After time you kind of learn to understand basic patterns that other players play with. Good players learn to provoke you into poking with moves which put themeselves right outside of the max range of their pokes leaving you able to punish them. Its all a matter of making your opponent believe there is a close enough gap between you and him to hit them with a poke. A good example of this is Daigo’s guile. He zones you out with sonic booms and pokes and all of a sudden you throw out a poke and you eat a sonic hurricane or a backfist, Roundhouse, etc.

The overall key to these strategies is…

  1. Know your distancing…
  2. Know your matchups…
  3. And learn to watch and punish obvious patterns by moving in a out provoking a whiffed poke.

Take any advice from me with a grain (or ten) of salt, since footsies is by far my weak point. The ‘punishing whiffs’ part of footsies I’m decent at, though.

As cliched as it sounds, practice makes perfect. I used to think that punishing Sagat’s fierces was nearly impossible, now I think it’s cake. Although it would seem that you need incredibly fast reflexes to punish whiffs, people with slow reflexes like me can still do it if they concentrate on it enough. It’s not even as difficult as rolling through fireball thrown up close.

The way I punish whiffs (which probably isn’t the best way), is I jiggle around at about the range of the move my opponent is most likely to press. In Sagat’s case, hang around at the tip of the range of his low fierce/forward. Sure, he can reach you from there with standing forward but it’s not that big of a deal. Most characters can punish Sagat after blocking/getting hit by Sagat’s standing forward anyway. So, just get around the tip of Sagat’s fierce range and jiggle back and forth like you see the other top players doing. For some odd reason even if Sagat hits fierce while you’re in range you end up blocking it 95% of the time without even meaning to. While jiggling there just watch your opponent’s sprite. If it does some kind of attack just hit your “whiff punisher” button regardless of what happens; if your opponent’s attack whiffed then you get a free hit. If you’re within the opponent’s range and you block the move and still hit your whiff punisher button nothing will come out since you’ll be in the middle of block stun. Simple enough, right?

The two main weaknesses to this strategy is that you can be baited by an opponent whiffing jabs and shorts, and that while jiggling around 99% of players will not block low at all. The latter is hard to fix; it’s been Ricky’s main weakness for a while now. However, most characters don’t have low moves that reach far enough to take advantage of this, and even if they do those moves tend to be very risky to do. Examples of these moves would be Iori’s low roundhouse, Hibiki’s qcf+fierce, Bison’s and Blanka’s slides, etc. The former weakness can be effectively patched up by doing what I call “low risk whiff punishers”.

Most decent characters have two good whiff punishers; one with high risk/reward and one low risk/reward. For example, Hibiki. Hibiki can punish whiffs very easily with her low fierce, but if she gets baited by like a whiff jab or something and the opponent jumps or rolls through it, she’s dead. To help lessen the risk, sometimes the Hibiki user should punish whiffs with low/standing strong instead. While it’ll take a million strongs to kill somebody, the strong is 90% safe to rolls and jumps if it is baited. When should you use the high risk moves? When you are 90% sure your move is going to hit, like after your opponent whiffs a fierce or roundhouse.

watch their controller it helps a lot or learn to react when you hear the push of a button!

thats kinda cheating, and thats why they put a partition between player 1 and player 2 at evolution, to stop them from “reading the sticks”

i know from past experience and watching some older cvs2 videos…if you play blanka or bison, and are able to bait those fierces, you can psycho crusher (fierce version) or blanka ball (fierce). the psycho is MUCH more safer, but it can be done without reprocussion. also with ryu, it is rather easy (imo) to hit sagat after a whiffed st fierce, low fierce especially by hitting st fierce yourself with ryu. but basically to beat a dead horse, its really knowing what your particular opponent ‘favors’ towards. if every time he hits fierce (either) when you are 1 character away, then just discipline yourself to not being hesitant. That’s the main thing I think here, is just being confident that you ‘know’ what your opponent is going to ‘favor’ to do. But then there’s characters like c-chun who can just be sloppy, and land st strong into whatever she wants…hope this can be of help.

or you can use a roll groove with iori. when he whiffs, roll and punish with whatever. but Chun is better choice than iori in theory.

Here’s how I did it.

Choose practice mode.
Choose a character with a good poke (e.g. Sagat)
Go to record and have him do his poke.
Choose your character. Try to hit him with your pokes after he whiffs.

Doing this you should be able to learn the range and priority of your moves and when you should do them.

I did this for Sagat’s fierce, Chun Li’s strong, Cammy/Sakura roundhouse, Bison cr forward, and lots of Blanka pokes. If you can figure out what to punish with for a variety of whiffed pokes ike these, you sohuld improve your footsie game substantially.

This is a good thread (for real). My thanks to whoever started it.

Yeah I agree, great thread.

Most characters can punish Sagat after blocking/getting hit by Sagat’s standing forward anyway.

like who/how?

It’s laggy like Hibiki’s qcf+P.

You can’t normally punish it on reaction but if you mentally watch out for it you can hit him back with a L3 most of the time.

How are you going to charge AND bait whiffed fierces…?

The only charcter I can naturally punish Sagat’s fierce with is my Kyo for some reason. c.rh and s.rh works wonders against Sagat.

eagle stand fierce punishes sagats high fierce very well… especially people who abuse wiff low fierce then s.fierce… i hardly ever try to punish low fierces… most times i try i eat a high fierce…