Question about attitudes towards fighting games


#1

I was reading through an old thread where some Brawl kid trying to justify Smash, and a lot of the arguments against Smash as a fighter was that the rules had to be changed from the factory settings, and that Smash being a competitive fighter was against the creator’s intent.

My question is why are these two criteria so important or valued by members at SRK? Why do some people think it’s bad for a community of players to shape the way the game is played, rather than just deferring to the factory settings?

Thanks in advance, and I hope this discussion stays civil. This sort of mindset seems foreign to me, and I’m curious as to what your guys’ reasoning are.


#2

Cause they don’t know how the game will actually turn out in a year or two years with just default settings. The game could evolve and have a ton of hidden depth with stuff some think of as ‘random’ or ‘unfair’. Instead they stunt the growth of the game by trying to make it more ‘fair’ at first glance without even giving anything a chance.


#3

This isn’t a disguised “smash really is a fighting game” thread is it?


#4

There is already a thread of this exact nature but let me wrap up what you will bee seeing in the next 20 pages.

-its an okay game, but the community sucks.

-smash players are young and annoying.

-smash isn’t a fighting game lol.

This is getting boring.


#5

it probably varies from person to person. but i kind of agree its pointless to play the game without items… its just TOO fun. and when simple casual play deteriorates into the same characters and stages, and everyone trying to win by any means at all, even in a casual setting, it gets kind of pointless imo.

i think some people are bitter towards smash players because of tournaments they attend. i seem to remember hearing about one where the smash players were rather disrespectful and somewhat horded TV’s to play their game. I’m sure that kind of animosity can go both ways though. I dont mind smash, but i suppose the people in the EVO 2k9 live stream chat kind of showed what im talking about.

Everytime, and i mean EVERY TIME, some other game would show up, several people would say scream “WTF IS THIS SHIT, PUT SF4 ON”. i suppose the people who play brawl also look at that kind of thing and it just reflects badly on the SF community.


#6

I don’t think it’s so much bad

It’s what the community has done after the fact at least for me. Example…

For MvC2. Roms and infinites and resets and broken shit of that nature come out. Marvel players manufacture this information and adjust accordingly.

Chu Dat uses the Ice Climbers wobble infinite in a match, and the Smash community have the audacity to throw bitch fits. The entire competitive scene is controlled by “The People dat be” so to speak(A select few of high level players).

They treat a game seriously that was just a great big accident on the part of the developers.

Their community takes itself way too seriously for a game that manufactured it’s community. They invent a bunch of terminologies, find out a bunch of thing’s that weren’t intended to be in the game, but then have the audacity to pick and choose which of the broken thing’s are allowed or banned instead of adjusting their game to the new tactics. That adds nothing new to the game.

It’s like the top brass of the community invent rules that benefit them, to keep themselves at the top and then quickly snuff out anything that could potentially threaten them being at the top


#7

That’s not what I was asking otter. >_<

I read through one of those threads before, and people kept on making those same arguments, I was wondering what the warrant behind those arguments were.

Biolink:

I’m in the backroom, and while a lot of people freaked out at first because most people hadn’t been exposed to something like that, but cooler heads prevailed and we voted not to ban Wobbling by a pretty significant margin. Though some TOs still do, but that just shows how the backroom really don’t control everything.

Even if it is a manufactured accident, what’s wrong with taking it seriously?

And lol at the conspiracy theory that the backroom is intent on keeping a tight grip on the community. Most of the top players like Mango and DSW aren’t in the BR. M2K is but he’s ridiculous and non one takes his post seriously.


#8

there are plenty of games that can make a case for fighting game-ness like smash, and all of them would be equally as wrong.

It’s just that communities for virtual on, twisted metal, and change fucking air blade don’t troll these forums on a consistent basis.


#9

hahaha you hope this stays civil

unless someone locks the thread then i will make sure that doesn’t happen


#10

Why are you doing this…and good job masking your thread title.

Smash ? fighting game.


#11

I don’t see what’s wrong with policing a game a bit just to make it more playable.

It’s kind of a shame to see a game that could be great be ruined by one or two broken elements. And if those elements can be removed via ‘banning’ I don’t see how that’s a bad thing at all.

But then again I played Smash for a while, and in the early stages, MvC2 players made absolutely no sense to me either (and still don’t).

Part of the reason Smash players insist on shaping their game to suit them is because it’s actually not a ‘normal’ fighting game and therefore the rules of balance are different. I agree that items in smash are stupid. They’re just too random and it makes perfect sense to turn them off. The old ‘bob-omb spawning in front of me as I attack’ chestnut is hardly an exaggeration, and people who haven’t played the game seriously have no way of understanding this.

Smash has a lot more depth to it when both players aren’t scrabbling around trying to camp for items. At least Melee does. Brawl…eh…not so much.


#12

god damn furries!

hahaha jk you are a pretty good poster


#13

I don’t speak for everyone but one thing that smash doesn’t have (as you stated) is the creator’s intent to make it competitive. Now smash is still competitive and if you’re more skilled at that game you will win but there is one huge problem competitively and that is the skill ceiling (Not a problem with Melee but rather Brawl).

Melee had tons of techniques and useful things due to the system like wavedashing, l-canceling and actually made some characters even usable (since some straight out sucked ass without it). It had a lot of execution and practice to that to perfection and still play mindgames in a competitive environment.

Then comes Brawl where the creator directly stated that he didn’t want it competitive. So he changed the system to disallow the high level techniques and added tripping which is an arbitrary factor in the game. By changing the way the system played in the way that they did, the skill ceiling dropped, though if you were more skilled than someone you would still win.

To me this just seemed counter-productive to the growth of the series. It took away rather than add to the system making it feel a step down. Normally in fighting games, when they make a sequel they either add to it, or take a side-step ( or branch off might be a better term) and differentiate to it (sort of how ST added to HF but Alpha to ST is more like a side-step or a different branch of the street fighter games because the mechanics are very different).

Of course this is my opinion of a problem on the game, not the community or anything. I don’t really care if people call it a fighting game or whatever but rather that the design philosophy from Melee to Brawl seemed not what you expect from a competitive fighter.


#14

Probably because the community has its origins in the arcade scene where Street Fighter and other 2d fighters were born. Dip switches weren’t being adjusted on the machines so you played the games as is. No customization of anything.


#15

mirror matches are a visual frontend for rps what do you fags think of that heh


#16

Yeah, and every console port is measured against the original arcade standard.

And pretty much every fighting game have an arcade version.


#17

RPS itself is merely a frontend for the complex and well-honed Japanese samurai tradition of yomi, as defined by 7th-level grandmaster David “Daimyo” (formerly “Diamond Dave”) Sirlin, expert of all things Oriental.

Also, you’re kinda mean. :frowning:

At any rate…well, I have mixed feelings on Smash, or at least on the flame wars it invariably creates. On the one hand, even when the Smashers are legitimately civil, they attract a mouth-breather peanut gallery to shit all over them for being upstarts in a long-established, quirky gaming subculture. On the other hand, well, we have threads like this one, which come off as so utterly futile that they seem especially annoying – or at least so ill-advised as to provoke facepalming. Let’s be frank – you guys aren’t getting the proper respect you deserve, but you’re trying to obtain it the entirely wrong way.

The bottom line, I think, is that threads like these are NOT the way to win the respect of the “wider” fighting game scene. There’s nothing to gain because there’s no material commitment, no physical demonstration of the virtues of your players, your community, and your tournaments. All you prove on the Internet (and this goes for non-Smash drama, too) is that you’re willing to argue. So how DO you win SRK over, then? The same way you get better at tournament-level fighting game play, for Smash or otherwise – by stepping your game up.

Ignore the Internet trolling. Refine your play and react with maturity to quirky new shit that evolves in your game. Organize and run your tournaments with class and efficiency. Be transparent about how large-scale tournament decisions are made. Be mature, be respectful of players of other games and of each other. Be charitable to outside views, and don’t be afraid to laugh at things in your game or in your scene that are honestly silly or idiosyncratic.

You guys are relatively new, and like all new guys, you get hazed. There’s no getting around it. Suffer the slings and arrows and prove yourself a class act, and don’t worry about what the Internet thinks – if you prove yourself to be professionals and good sports with minimal drama at majors like Evo, the Internet ribbing will die down anyway as a side effect.


#18

Oh, I have another question for you guys; has there ever been a sequel to a well established game that was completely inferior (like Brawl is to Melee)? How did the respective communities deal with the switch? Did they pick one or did the community remain divided?


#19

Taking out things like items or levels (core game play elements) suggests that the game must be altered for fair and competitive high level play. If the game must be significantly altered for high level play, how good can you really argue that it is?

It’s fairly rare, but it’s going to depend on how bad the new game is. Lots of people never picked up SF3 from ST, but eventually came around to 3rd Strike. If the sequel is totally unplayable, you’d likely just play the OG and forget the new one ever came out.


#20

Street Fighter Alpha 2 versus Alpha 3.

Most people I’ve known stuck to Alpha 2. Some people liked Alpha 3 though