Question about attitudes towards fighting games

What is up with all these damned Surprise Smash threads?!

Well from where I stand, it’s a good game without crazy stuff. I look at it kind of like tennis; it’s a game that requires a certain kind of field to function, but it still has depth, fun, challenges and enjoyment even with the limitations. Playing tennis on slopes or in a minefield wouldn’t be that enjoyable, since if affects what you can do with your own skill in an adverse way, and also, avoiding bombs with every step isn’t exactly conducive to testing skill between opponents.

good to see that smash players construct analogies the same way that they construct arguments

Point noted, but I hate the “even playing field/no randomness argument”. Your game WAS created with randomness built in. You’d arguably be more skillful if you could mitigate the randomness and STILL WIN. Ask a successful poker player if they think they only win by luck.

According to your argument you’d deal everyone in a high stakes poker game the same cards, since therefore the most skillful player would win every time. Either way, you’re denying the design of the game to fabricate a supposedly skill only competitive environment.

As for Smash the game itself…you guys really got shit on with Brawl. For all the annoying Smash kids the Internet produces, Sakurai basically took a steaming dump on your heads; it’s one thing to dismiss the competitive scene for what was conceived as a party game as a lunatic fringe (even though you guys kinda are), but to openly sabotage mechanics that only the competitive players would even know about? That’s S-tier dickery, no bones about it. You guys got FUCKED.

If it were me, I’d just stay with Melee, which sounds like a far more enjoyable game all-around. But I don’t play Smash to begin with, so that shows you what I know.

Personally, I don’t think much of Smash not so much because I don’t care for the way it plays as because I think it doesn’t have a bright future, given the radical disconnect between what the players want and what the game’s creators want. I get kinda disappointed seeing all this promising young talent gravitating towards what I perceive as a franchise with no future, rather than any number of titles where the developers actually want to expand the competitive scene.

mixups are random and therefore should be taken out of all fighting games to create a more skillful environment

There’s still some elements of luck/randomness; stage transformations, the random stage for first match, Peach/GaW’s items, but they generally don’t interfere the way items do. and can be mitigated/used to your advantage with smart play. Items just decrease the skill gap between players due to random advantages/exploding crates; I can beat most of the non-tournament players at my school 3 on 1 with no team attack without items, but when they’re turned on the random stuff they end up getting it’s almost impossible to win. Singles matches are a lot closer with items than without. It’s also not any experience thing, since I played with items for years before I discovered competitive play. IMO items just aren’t as fun as an intense singles match.

I don’t think the poker analogy transfers well though; to me the cards would be a character’s options, and the skill is shown by what the player does with those options and what risk he takes. Smash’s design and attributes don’t translate into poker. I think the tennis analogy is a better fit, as there are still elements outside of control (wind, court type, string tension, sunlight, etc) but it’s a much more controlled environment when skill is valued higher and tested above adaptability to random elements. Besides, every matchup isn’t even on any stage, so that extrapolation is a misrepresentation of what we strive to do with our tournaments. But I digress, I don’t really want to debate this since it’s pointless.

What’s wrong with modifying the design of the game? You guys have seen that our designers are well, retarded. For us Meleers, it’s not something crazy like those Brawl+ kids who hack the game, we just work with what they gave us.

TC, you glossed past this post, but it’s realistically the best answer to your question. We aren’t just da best, we’re also da purists.

Then why are the old EVO finals with items so fun and intense to watch?

I find it amusing as to how except in very rare instances VF3 isn’t used as an example or the backbone example of any of these arguments considering how it aptly demonstrates randomness and off key shit making it in an incredibly high octane competitive title.