Question for ST players


#1

I originally posted this in NKI’s thread, but I realized that’s more related to strategies so I decided to make my own topic. Here is what I posted there:

I’ve noticed recently that a lot of other fighting games are basically built on hit-confirm fests, memorization of trades (as in trading moves and figuring out what beats what), or mix-up/guessing games followed up by massive damage. The funny thing about this is that you’re basically playing a “skill-of-hands” game, memorization game, or a simple probability/dice game, respectively, with nice visuals slapped on. It’s like an outer shell. Imagine if those games had all of the same moves, hit boxes, etc. but with black and white stick figures. Would it still be as fun?

Don’t get me wrong, I like other games like 3S, Tekken, or CvS2, but sometimes I feel that I’m just playing to get in massive damage or waiting for the right opportunity to strike. Somehow I don’t see these situations in ST and it’s quite refreshing. In ST there’s always a fast pace and no room to sit safely (partly due to the guard damage setting). Yes, there are mix-ups and guessing games, but it doesn’t feel as frustrating every time you guess wrong or miss a hit-confirmation. I think spacing plays a bigger part in ST than the things I mentioned earlier. Anybody else feel the same way?

I could be totally wrong since I don’t have a lot of experience with non-AI players (due to my location). However, these are some of the trends that I’ve noticed in video’s as well.

DISCLAIMER: I’m not trying to start a war or battle between games nor am I trying to disrespect any players of said games. I’m just trying to know if I’m really comprehending the strategic aspects of these other games.


#2

well i’m not EXACTLY sure what you’re trying to ask or point out, but one thing I notice about ST is that on a GENERAL level, the game is simple enough. Then when you think about the characters in terms of risk/reward, its all pretty equal, which can be a relieving thought.

But, in other games, not everyone has the same risk/reward. So, this idea can get weird and frustrating at times, because there’s more to think about than 50/50 and mixup. Other games are more situational.


#3

There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. There is no easy damage in ST. Everything has to be worked for and earned (even throws). Spacing and placement play huge factors in determining a win.

This is a game where one well placed/timed forward kick can make the difference in a win or loss.

Every move or movement matters. Placement and spacing of attacks matter matter more than in many other SF’s. One reason is b/c it is all you have to win a match. There is no running away and powering up the Gin-ei-Jin (spelling?) over and over in a match for quick easy damage. There are no 90% unblockable custom combos.

You have to focus on so much more for example: if some one fakes you out and you jump over what you thought was going to be a fireball, there is no Parry, JD, or CC to activate to help you avoid getting hit. Simply put, you got juked, and you?re eating a DP.

I believe many players will say something to the fact that playing a high level of ST will help see all the other SF’s in a simpler light.

No matter how you disguise a SF game with parries, cc’s, or anything else, every SF is really all about controlling space. The OG SF?s are the purest games in terms of controlling space.

Nothing else other than contoling space factored in to a win, there where no 90% or easy combo’s to do to help you win a game where you behind in life and not contoling the space.

If you did not control space you lost, that simple.

Anyway, it is late and I am not sure if I am making sense… I’ll reread this tomorrow and edit as needed. BUt I hope this makes some sence til then.


#4

I guess what I’m asking is:

a) How correct are my assumptions?

b) Am I looking only at the negatives and not focusing on what happens in between (meaning before and after a hit-confrim, etc.)? Or is that all irrelevant?

I guess ‘laugh’ put it best in his signature, LOL.

BTW, fatboy, same here. I’m out for tonight -___-zzzZZZZZz


#5

Part of the appeal of these newer games is that they may not be quite as pure and simple as ST, but they still feel good when you play them. The visuals (as you mentioned) contribute toward this.

Yes, that’s what makes ST the definitive 2D fighting game.


#6

Most of this goes out the window if you bring O. Sagat or CE Bison in to the equation.


#7

I think you’re getting things twisted.


#8

I know what your getting at i.e. Chun (3s).

But I said one well placed forward, not Forward > Super. If Chun does not have a super, the value of her forward in a fight goes down. In ST every move matters.

Example, Guile Vs. DJ.

This match is pretty equal over all. It comes down to each others zone with SB’s. All of DJ’s moves on the ground beat Guile?s moves or trade DJ?s Favor: Cr. Fierce, Cr. Strong, Cr, forward, Cr. Round House, all are very powerful.

For guile to win, he has to push forward slowly in the match, stand right out side sweep range and wait for DJ to stick a move out in anticipation to beat guile’s Cr. Forward, when DJ sticks out a move, Guile hits DJ’s move with ONE Cr. Forward.

Now Guile has a lead in life, it is highly doubtful DJ, will damage Guile with throwing fireballs. Guile just keep cancelling them with SB’s.

So, DJ is forced to come in. It changes the entire game for DJ. There is NO easy way to try and make up that damage. Coming in on Guile is a easy way to a fast death. DJ, can’t run away and build meter for a easier super (Yun/GinieJin) or unblockable cc (akuma/A3) to make up that life. He has to earn it. If he makes one mistake while trying to make up the “forward” kick lead in life guile has, he’s eating a flash kick, and is even more behind and more desperate.

Another example: Ryu Vs. Guile:
Same general setup, but RYU has to stay out side of Guiles Cr. Forward range, But close enough for guile to think it can hit (like one/ two pixels). He waits for the forward to whiff and punishes with a Cr. RH.

Now, again… Ryu has a lead in life, and the Guile is forced to play outside his zone. It changes the entire game for Guile. There is NO easy way to try and make up that damage. Leaving his zone is risky for Guile. And again, he can’t run away and build meter for an easier/overpowered super (Yun/GinieJin) or unblockable cc (akuma/A3) to make up that life.

In the new games, less importance is placed each move you choose to execute. B/c if you get hit or make a bad guess, you can run away and build meter for a high% high damage super combo/cc that will easily will make up for the loss of the life from getting hit from the crouching forward.

Just look at most of the CVS2 finals, 3s, and A3.

In cvs2, most of the finals come down to two players sitting on a CC waiting for one little move from there ememy, so they can activate thier CC and take off over 7000 points of life. There is no incentive to play hit for hit. You just build up your meter as fast as you can, and go for your CC over and over. It doesn?t matter if the opponent has a lead in life. B/c once you get that meter, one easy cc. gives you a HUGE combo. Shoot, the opponent can even block it and loss 50% their life (Sak?s sho sho sho vs. ANY P/K groove)

In 3S. You get the Yun?s, Chun?s, Uren?s all running away to build matter for their crazy supers. They don?t care if they get hit by some random normals, B/c once they get their meter, there is a high % that they are going to do A LOT of life to their opponent.

In A3, V-Akuma has a CC?s that is UNBLOCKABLE from any where on screen. (there are many Chars with unblockabe CC’s but not from any where on screen) He just runs away builds it, and uses it over and over again. Look at the absolution 2004 Videos. Again he doesn?t care if he gets hit a couple of times with a random normal. As soon as he gets his meter, there is a high % you are loosing a lot of life.

This doesn?t exist in the older SF?s, at least not this depth and degree. Every move matters. Ever pixel of spacing matters. There s no easy damage. One simple crouching forward ,not canceled into SA III, but a simple cr. Forward can change an entire game.

If Chun hit Yun with a cr. Forward in the begging of a match, just a simple non canceled Cr. Forward would Yun care??

If A-groove Sakura hit A-Hibik with one Standing RH in CVS2 in the begging ot the match, would A-Hibiki care much?

If V-Dhalsim hit V- Akuma with one St. Forward in A3 in the beginning of a match, would it matter much?

Now if Guile hit Ryu with one crouching forward, in the beginning of a match, would it matter? It would matter more than any of the examples listed above.

If Ryu hit Guile with a Cr.rh in ST, in the beginning of a match, would it matter? Yes.

One throw matters in ST, one uppercut, one flash kick, one spinner, even one JP. RH. Everything matters.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there is a point where your low on life in any SF game where every hit starts to matter.

But, in OG SF the whole match is like that.


#9

You’ve got a really good point there, fatboy. BTW, it’s spelled “Genei-Jin”.

In case anybody didn’t read what he wrote or doesn’t understand, I’ll try to summarize. Consider the cr. forward in ST, 3S, CvS2, or A3. In ST, the power of the cr. forward lies in it’s ability to pull the opponent in to inflict damage. Meaning if Guile gets one in at the beginning of the match, then the opponent needs to catch up and put some damage on Guile since the damage is so significant (in the sense that Guile is hard to attack due to his Sonic Boom’s). However, in the other three games, it’s pretty much meaningless if it’s not canceled into some sort of highly damaging follow-up. That’s what I got out of it.

KyoKuji, you’ve got a good point as well. First of all, I don’t know enough about CE characters to discuss Bison. As for O. Sagat, yes he’s “cheap”. But he still doesn’t have a hit-confirm into massive damage. Yes, he does have one of the most lucrative mix-ups in any fighting game ever, but it’s not like he feels very safe himself. If he makes a mistake then the opponent can do just as much damage, maybe even more, than a tiger (fireball). There’s not much more I can argue against that other than the fact that a lot of players don’t play him or Akuma due to morality.


#10

No to mention… His flsh kick. Jumping throws, Back fist, crouching forward, regular throws, crouching ferice, standing feirce, crouching round house, and Jump up forwrd, jump up round house, standing strong, and several other misc moves. He has a whole arsenal of anti airs.

Just look at YBH. It has a whole list of normals he can use as anti airs to make life a bitch from any ememy trying to jump in and break his zone. :looney:


#11

One more thing that I noticed is that ST seems to have the most consistency in tournament results. Players like Otoochun, Gian, etc. are always in the top 3, if not the top 2. In 3S, it’s more like consistency in the top 8 or top 5. CvS2 and Tekken are pretty much the same as well. I guess this can show that victory depends less on probability and more on skill and experience.


#12

Uh, Ce Bison isn’t in ST.


#13

Here is a post to help illustrate my point about the other Fighters VS. OG SF. By none other than SRK’s resident CVS2 master Bucktooth (he’s a super ninja…no really).

Please note where I bolded, italicized , underlined, and turned red. This could never (or extremely rarely) happen in OG ST.

Yes, I understand that he is made this comment on a totally different topic, and I took slightly out of context here.

I am just trying to illustrate that particular game play philosophy could not be taken in ST or any other OG SF.

On a normal basis due to the general play of ST, where every move matters…etc…etc, you could not take that many AA’s let alone 2-3 Dps and expect to come out ahead.

Look at these AA’s.

Three Flash Kicks ~70-75% Life
Three uppercuts ~60-65% Life
Three Sim slides into cr.rh ~60-65% life
Three Sim Slides into throw ~95% or death.
Three Vega Flip kick combo’s ~70-75%

There aren’t any combo’s you could pull of with any kind of constancy to make taking that much damage worth it.

FOR the record, I totally understand what he is saying… don’t jump in like a idiot… make wise educated choices… etc…

(repeating myself)

I am just trying to illustrate that particular game play philosophy could not be taken in ST or any other OG SF.


#14

Just to play devils advocate for a moment, that is kind of the philosophy that many grappler matches in ST work off of. T.Hawk especially. He can trade a number of hits, or even get hit until he’s almost dead. All he needs is one good opening to get the tick command-throw going. Then he’s on top of you with j.lp into tick. And to a lesser extent some zangief and even honda matches can be won like this.

Also, some characters really can make major comebacks with their supers. Balrog’s super by itself does a lot. Chun’s super into upkicks is pretty vicious. And Ryu can jump in low-forward -> super for big damage. In addition, some characters, like DJ, have some ridiculous combos that don’t even involve a super.

Now don’t get me wrong, I know what you’re saying. You can’t play most of the match-ups in ST and win with any consistency by only looking for an opening to land their most damaging combo/move. However, I do think it’s going a little far to say that this philosophy in no way applies to OG games. I think it can. It’s just less predominant and is more character/matchup specific.


#15

I actually understand and agree with what your are saying. Did you read my other posts? (not flaming):lovin:

My point was that for all the examples you mentioned: How hard do those character have to work to do that kind of damage?

They have to work their asses off… especially if they are behind in life.

Now look at the examples I gave.
Chun (3s)
Yun (3s)
Akuma (A3)
Sak (CVS2)

How hard do they have to work to do big damge? … Not nearly as hard as your examples. Chun, Yun, and Sak, all have ultra high damaging combos that are not that hard to pull off. Akumas CC is eaven unblockable from anywhere on screen. In each of those games the characters mainly run away build meter, and go for there ultra damaging combos.

AND WHO WOULD BLAME THEM?

As I said, your points and examples are well taken,

But all I was trying to point out is that you have to work a lot harder to do that damage in OG SF. Whether it be a three hit combo, or a combo into a super. Everything is harder to earn.

You are less likely to see super combo’s win a match on ST that it is to see them win a match in other other games dicussed.

Anyway, I am sure some will not agree, and that is cool. I am not trying to say I am 100% right. I am just going off of my experince. :sweat:


#16

Yeah, I’d say that’s true. I think we basically agree. Like I said, I was just trying to play devils advocate. :wgrin: