Questions about the Demon and other things

akuma

#1

Let me preface this by saying that I know how the demon works and that you can’t combo into it. What this does entail is more a question of recovery frames.

Ever since I saw the karademon videos and how, at point blank they can’t jump out after the flash, I was wondering if there were ways to “set up” the demon. So I was thinking, if you can orchestrate a way to make your opponent be recovering from hitstun as you hit point blank, can they jump out or are they stuck, since as soon as they hit neutral (recovered) they will be snagged? Are there frames of recovery (where reversal moves can be performed) that happen before they return to neutral? I pretty sure its not guaranteed, but I wanted to get an expert opinion.

My second question regard the demon flip palm. I almost always use the kick, because I tend to get AA’d out of the palm. Are there any good suggestions of when to use either?


#2

Kara demon only works for super, they’ll definitely be able to jump out if you’re using the kara technique for the ultra. If you’re specifically referring to the super than you should make this clear, but I’ll just assume so for now.

I’m fairly certain they’d be able to jump out, though I’m not sure of a viable way to even test if this is the case.

As for demon flip palm, it’s an amazing tool that lets you land from a demonflip with no recovery, great for baiting reversal uppercuts or whatever else, also great for landing and starting a low hitstring or something.


#3

I should have made it clear that I was referring to the super. When I get back home (out of town for work) I’m going to see if I can’t rig up something in practice and test this out.

If anyone out there knows, what constitutes a “reversal” in-game? is it hitting your opponent with an attack when they end up with a negative on block?


#4

About 4/5 times if I’ve ever successfully landed ultra demon, i lk.demon flip palm to their other side and do the super (which results in perfect range). It’s done faster than a cross-up medium kick, and so they just block on wakeup.


#5

You’re sending out mixed messages here! MY MIND.


#6

Do you land before they wake up, or right as? Doesn’t this put you at (slight) risk of AA, or does the palm sufficiently stuff DP’s and other nastiness so that the opponent will think twice about throwing them out?


#7

Ha sorry, Ok this is what I mean, I get around 70~80% success rate with this gimmick:

[media=youtube]ZOMRGZDxpUo[/media]

The lk.dflip is earlier than the opponent can wake up and reversal. At point blank, inescapable. Since the lk.dflip (usually) lands sooner than they wake, they shouldnt throw out the reversal and will just opt to block.


#8

I think you can test this with a normal canceled into super no? For example: c.mk xx super and once you see the flash set the dummy to jump when he get out of block/hitstun.


#9

^ huh?


#10

The best you can ever do with the super is make a guessing situation where they can get out if they anticipate but not after the flash. The game does not allow in general for guaranteed throws of any sort as people recover from any stun, with the exception of throwing people who are crumpling from FA. So it doesn’t matter what setups you use for demon, if they guess right they can always escape.

I only use the palm to whiff and land.

A reversal is any special, ultra, or super that is done on the first available frame as you recover from blockstun, hitstun, or wakeup.

If 4/5 times you land an ultra you have a super, you’re not using your meter as effectively as you could be in general :stuck_out_tongue:

Also ultra sets up vortex mixups, super is a viable option but there are many many more to choose from. Using it with such a high percentage won’t work at higher level play where people are observant of habits.


#11

OP asked what were some demon setups and I mentioned that i would super after ultra as one such setup. of course some setups wont work at high level, but thankfully online they can :D. Besides, i dont see very many akumas land demon all too often anyway.


#12

Thanks for the insight Muken! I had a feeling hitstun setups wouldn’t work, but I can’t think of a better place to ask than here.

Basically, they will recover from hitstun, and they can jump it, but if they they try to reversal, they will probably be snagged during startup (since the super demon grabs so fast). Am I right in assuming that you can only counter the super demon if you hit akuma has he approaches?

In reference to the demon flip, I had always been using the kick to bring it up short (used to playing gouken, where his other options have ground recovery :() because the kick has good priority, but if the palm whiffs recover that fast, I’ll have to start using those.


#13

No problem.

If they reversal with something with invincibility that can beat your super too.

Basically the way it works is you cannot be grabbed during any of the frames in which you are in hitstun. But the moment you leave hitstun, you can immediately go into either an invincible move or a jump (which is throw-invincible on the first frame), meaning there will never be any frames during which you can be thrown. The restriction being that you must choose these options before the frame in question, you cannot input them during a super freeze unless you are still in stun during the freeze.

So you can set up mixups, but for them to be effective the freeze must occur after they recover. Otherwise they will be able to make decisions based on the freeze.

Kick has a slight pause on startup, palm drops immediately. Also you can use palm to whiff right on top of them (by doing it too high up in the air) and follow up with unexpected ground mixups. You can’t do that with kick since it dives all the way to the ground.