Quick frame data questions

Sorry about the noob question, but google is failing me here. Finding it hard to find some info on frame data annotations.

for startup data. what does the [] and + mean?

balrog light dash punch: 13[4]
balrog ultra 2: 0+1
zangief ultra 1: 1+0

I know the difference in ultras means you can jump out of balrogs, but i’m not sure why…

Then in active frames what does () mean?
balrogs ultra 1: 6(8) 6(7) 6(8) 6(15) 3

thanks yo.

the () menas that there’s a ‘‘gap’’ between attacks,for example,let’s say that Ryu’s HK tatsu is something like 2(3)2(4)2(3)2, the 2 are the frames where the attack actually hits,the 3 and 4 are the time between kick and kick

for the + things I belive it’s the ‘‘animation’’ like Ryu charging his fireball let’s say it takes like 1 frame,so the startup for the attack is 1+19 or something like that,but I belive you can’t do nothing on those animation frames,like for example Gief ultra 1 is 1+0,but you can’t jump due to not being able to attack while animation

dunno what the [] means though,I’ll have to look it up

For Balrog, the [] refers to the fastest startup possible. Because dash punches are distant dependent, their startup varies depending on how far he is. So Balrog’s light dash punch has 4f startup if he’s right next to you. There’s an endnote at the bottom of the wiki because it was too tedious to write it for every dash punch:

The 0+1 refers to the startup before and after the ultra flash. So 0+1 means: the flash starts, then the move hits on the next frame. Whereas 1+0 means the move has already hit by the time the ultra flash starts animating. This is why you can jump out of Balrog’s U2 on reaction, but you can’t out of Gief’s U1.

If you play marvel, the difference is more noticeable between before and after super move flashes.

Cool. I did not realise there were frames before the ultra flash in sf.
I guess having 0+1 means that you can’t be hit out it. Possible usage against 1f window frame traps that may snub 1+0…?

Though I guess as balrog it is probably preferable to just ex headbutt into ultra 1 in frame trap scenarios. The primary usage seems to be anti safe jump usage… Aaanyway, that’s a topic for a different thread. Cheers the deets

You can safe jump EX-headbutt. It’s primary use is as a fast reversal. It’s quite dangerous, since it’s extremely punishable on block, so be aware of that.

Apologies to resurrect this old thread (I can repost this question).

So I read this a little while ago, but forgot how it related to the gief/rog ultras.

So if the last startup frame is the first active frame, then how can people jump out of rog’s 0+1 ultra? Surely it has to be 0+2?

Also it doesn’t make much sense that gief’s is 1+0 that means it’s active frame comes before the ultra flash.

Anyway it shouldn’t make a difference if its before or after the flash as its only 1, which basically means active on first frame, like akuma’s raging demon super.

Cheers y’all

Think about the flash as 0 and then the 1 after the flash. Because of that someone can input a jump when they see the flash and have their unthrowable pre jump Frames start when the grab starts causing the grab to miss.

Think about the 1 as the grab and the 0 as the flash, since the grab starts before the flash, if the opponent wasn’t starting a jump/in an airborne state/in an invincible state before the flash then they will get grabbed.

ah I see, so you’ve already been grabbed. (even though I posted “that doesn’t make much sense”), and it doesn’t make a difference that balrog’s is active immediately after the flash, as the person holding up during the flash is counted as holding up on the previous frame. I would’ve assumed all the inputs for the previous frame would’ve stopped once the flash starts.