Quick SA question

Ok, why is it that you can’t beat supers with startup (shippu, corkscrew, gigas, etc) with meaty attacks, but you can beat them with throws?

If they can get thrown during this startup, I would assume that they are vulnerable, but instead they go roght through normal attacks. Are they only vulnerable to throws or something?

some supers have invincibility on startup. standard throws cant beat a meaty attack. i dont know what you saw but the meaty might have been early or late so was able to throw.

That’s because throws are probably the quickest offensive move you have. They come out in about 6 frames. Meaning your average super has like 4 or 5 frames of invincibility. If you try to throw them while they do random super the throw will outlast their invince and you will throw them before the super connects. You can’t do this with a meaty attack because most meaty attacks don’t connect quick enough before the super has already hit you. Basically the frame that the super loses invincibility your throw frames are still active and on that first frame where there’s a lack of invince you throw them. With a meaty you still have a few frames to go before you can connect an attack.

I always had quite a different theory on this. Basically I thought that there are different types of invincibility: one type from grabs and one type from hits. Whether or not something will beat a super (or any move) depends on the properties of the invincibility.

For example, an SRK beats all throws, but can be meatied. Shippu on the other hand can be grabbed or command grabbed, but no regular hit will beat it. The startup interval of the move they do can have no invincibility, invincibility from throws or hits, or both.

Shippu has 2 (some say 3) frames of startup, and I believe a standard grab has 3. Provided that you throw at the right time, you can grab them before the shippu startup finishes (thereby grabbing them before any hit frames connect), but no regular hit can ever be timed to hit Ken out of it. Uppercut supers seem to have full invincibility (reflecting the throw invincibility of regular uppercuts).

I might technically be incorrect, but based on what I’ve seen, I think the theory works well enough for me to keep believing it until someone who knows for sure explains it.

Yes, Ken’s SA3 = 2 frames. Throws = 3 Frames

Or if you’re a scrub like me you can simply mash the jab button (it’s unbelievable the number of times I’ve beaten people’s supers with a jab).

If the shippu is invulnerable from hits then how can 2 shippus trade or how can shippu trade with genei-jin normals? Either there is yet another form of invulnerability (from supers) or your theory isn’t quite right. I there ARE 2 different kinds of invulnerability but I don’t believe that’s what causes shippu to beat all normals and specials. I think that’s priority. Throws have the most priority. Shippu will always beat dragon punches because it has mad priority. But it doesn’t have invulnerability so it can be thrown (they have more priority). Like you said, normal dragon punches have throw invulnerability so they always beat throws. Dudley’s SA1 has full on invulnerability so it beats everything even throws (and goes threw fireballs.)

I dunno. If two shippus are activated at the same time, then I figure they both experience invinc. simultaneously so that neither really wins, and the first hit frame for each super ends up hitting at the same time. When the game shows the super freeze at different times, I always assumed they really were both activated at the same time. I have no idea why GJ normals trade with shippu. Maybe the moves in GJ have super-like invinc. properties? But I’m pretty sure I’ve seen those trade with normal moves so maybe not.

As far as I know, SRKs and throws have roughly the same startup. But if you do a jab SRK with Ken and it’s about to hit and they super, you’ll notice that the frame where the jab SRK normally would hit just goes through him, and the super will start hitting while Ken’s in the air. That’s one case why I always figured shippu (for example) has invincibility from moves and that priority/startup wasn’t a factor.

I suppose a third invinc. type from supers (like you suggested) would also apply, where the startup time and invincibility time (not the same thing) would then decide which one hits. Eg. like how Sean’s SA2 always beats shin SRK, even though both have the same startup.

Keep in mind that I’m actually making all this up based on my experience. :smokin: I could be completely wrong.

Hey, if we weren’t making this up we’d already have the answers, right? I think I will have to do some testing to figure out whether Shippu has invincibility during the first hit. That is what you are suggesting, right? Unfortunately my ps2 is out of service ATM so it’ll be a few days before I have some answers.

i dont think shippu does, i loses to meaties sometimes. while fierce srk xx shippu will win with more consistancy(but still ive seen fierce srk trade with moves before…) to tell u the truth i think all this arguing about 3s invince shit is really pointless, unless youre more interested in seeing how and why things work than playing the game.

As far as I know, Shippu has attack invincibility on the first kick of the super and ends somewhere when the kick is extended. It does not have throw invincibility.

If the throw has started before Ken’s super freeze, and the distance is right, he will be thrown. I assume the throw has to be half way completed before the freeze, since you obviously can’t throw Ken’s actual kick.

For the invincibiltity test, just try Shippu thru an EX Fireball from full screen - Ken moves thru it slightly and then gets hit in the back. But, Shippu thru a Fierce Ryu fb from fullscreen and Ken passes thru completely.

the thing about that alex, i think rockerfeller explained that a while ago. like even if something moves though fireballs it doesnt necessarily have invincibility. like ken fierce dp will move through fireballs, but will trade with a meaty sweep. it was up on bustkaratedojo, dunno if its still up though. but yeah…invince properties in 3s are crazy, and people have been discussing them for years and still have no clear answer.

the reason dp goes through fireball is because DP upper body invincibility. however, it has no lower body invincibility. that’s why it’ll trade with a sweep. this is also true for dudley’s corkscrew.

there’s also inconsistencies in reported invincibility frames. many supers, although reportedly being invincible until their hit frame comes out, will still lose to meaties. akuma’s KKZ will lose to dudley’s corkscrew.

actually ive been able to uoh kens sa3 quite oftenbut i believe its a meaty hit tho so yeah…

That’s because the super misses some people when they are at the peak of their UOH

Here’s something interesting… ken vs. ken… 1 ken does sa3 and then the 2nd does sa3 AFTER THE SUPER FREEZE, the 2nd one wins. This might be a good argument for sa3 haven’t invincibility frames but IMHO it’s not conclusive.

Ive seen yun activate attack and it trade iwth a ken sa3 then ken did another sa3 and it COMBOED!!!