Re-Balancing Vega for SF4'

vega

#1

Hey all,

So unless this is the only SF4 character thread you read, you’ve probably seen those “OMG SF4’ IS COMING, LETS MAKE A BUNCH OF RIDICULOUS SUGGESTIONS SO OUR FAVOURITE CHARACTER CAN ALWAYS WIN” threads.

Well, here is Vega’s one!

Let me start off by saying: I’m interested in game balance, I have no interest in seeing Vega shoot to the top of the teirs. I don’t even care if Vega remains on the bottom of the teir list, someone’s got to be on the bottom right? just as long as the difference between bottom and top isn’t too big then it shouldn’t matter.

So here are my initial suggestions, let me know what you think of them and any ideas you have.

Sky High Claw EX-Version:

  • Instant air property: As soon as this executed Vega is class as being airborne.
    Why: Vega’s wake up options are pretty weak, but giving this move invincibility going To the wall would make it too strong.
    Putting Vega instantly in the air would allow him to avoid meaty sweeps and non-air throws. The instant-air property won’t matter that much anywhere but in a corner, so in normal execution the move would be the same.

  • Safe on hit: Vega would recover fast enough so that he could not be punished after he Hits (by hit i mean he connects with a non-blocking opponent).
    Why: This move is already unsafe enough, there’s no need to allow Vega to be punished for using it intelligently.

Flying Barcelona Attack:

  • Make Izuna Drop more feasible in a real match.
    Why: Right now I can do Izuna drop probably 7/10 times in training. It always makes me wish I could do it that reliably in a real match. In a real match my rate of hitting with Izuna is pretty much inverse of training at 3/10.

One of the reasons Vega is scary is that you know as soon as he’s up in the air he can either claw you, crossup-claw you or drop you.
The reason people aren’t that scared of Vega is because not that many people can regularly land the izuna drop, so they’re usually free to punish attempts at clawing them.

  • Give Vega the option to do something like Bisons EX-Devils Reverse.
    For those of you who don’t know, Bison can use Ex metre twice during devils reverse: once on the way up (gives it invincible frames enabling him to get free of corners) and once on the way down. Using it on the way down causes it to hit twice, making it an armor breaker.

I’d like to see Vega given this option with his EX-Barcelona. The Ex-Hit would pretty much act like the double-hit claw on the current Ex-Barcelona dive, except that it would be a guaranteed hit twice (as long as you’re in range and they’re not blocking) And it would also come with the property of trading with everything but the most expertly timed anti-air move.

Why: The EX-Barcelona is awesome as it is. Fantastic range, and the connect rate of Izuna Drop is actually pretty decent.
The EX-Claws wouldn’t be incredibly damaging or easily abused. They would require 2ex bars (1 for the initial ExBarcelona, 1 for ExClaws), so you’d most likely only see it twice a round at best, but it would give vega a reasonable option for mixing up his game a bit more.

Cosmic Heel:

Unless Sagat gets brought down a few pegs (maybe longer recovery on tiger shots), I’d like to see Cosmic Heel given the ability to leap over his low Tiger Shots.

Why not all fireballs?
Cosmic Heel is already a great move. Even on block you can often get a successful throw. Vega already has a bunch of options to avoid fireballs, there’s no need for him to have more, especially one with so much abuse potential.

EX Rolling Crystal Flash:

Is there any real point to this move?
It has loads of startup time during which you can be hit, and the speed at which it travels makes it impractical as a punisher for fireball spammers. I’d happily lose the potential to do the EX version of the move if it allowed Vega to get something better in return.

And finally…

ULTRA!

First off: For the love of less-frustration, Capcom, GIVE GUILE AND VEGA EASIER ULTRA MOTIONS.
I see no point to this ultra movement. It was a bad idea in SF2 and it’s still a bad idea now.

Secondly: Give this man some invincibility frames! Nearly every character in the game can use their ultras as corner-reversals, and most of those characters have stronger, easier to land (and easier to do) ultras. It’s not like he needs to be invincible the whole way to the wall. If he jumps to the furtherest wall from him, sure, let him get smacked out of it half-way, but if he’s just trying to get the hell out of a corner, give the guy a break.

Thirdly:
Let Vega steer the ultra after the wall jump.
We’ve already seen vega has godly air-control skills, so why not let us apply them to the ultra?
After the wall jump, players could hold Up or Down, causing Vega to angle his attack appropriately, giving the Ultra a bit more range, but only if you’re paying attention and know your angles.


#2

I don’t think he needs anything extreme. I’d be happy if they just gave scarlet terror some invincible frames on it’s start up, so it could function as a reversal move.


#3

First of all, I can for the most part, agree with Polybius.
Second, We have sooo many threads about stuff like this already.
Also, for some reason, my rate of landing Izuna Drop is WAAAY better than landing it in practice. I can’t even begin to think why that’s true, but that’s how it is for me.


#4

Vega is fine for the most part. He just needs a little polishing. A little love. And a Sagat nerf.


#5

Lose mask= -15% stamina has to go.

For the ultra motion, I think they should give him a 2xQCF/B motion, makes it easier to combo into and any attempt at using a fireball will be punished by an ultra instantly.


#6

and i thought we wer done with these threads!!..to the OP, clearly you spent a great deal of time putting all these ideas together and you have sum good points. but no matter how many threads like this are made, capcom is never gona do anything about vega! we need more positive threads like sasakis last one about understanding the positive points of vegas game…lets all just stop complaining about him and work harder to develop the beneficial skills he does have


#7

So you think Vega actually needs to be punished for losing his mask, at all? Really?

Wouldn’t it be better to just get rid of that retardedness altogether and make it a purely cosmetic thing?


#8

Getting rid of the whole idea would be great.


#9

I think the mask thing could work if his health was at slightly above average with it, and slightly below without, instead of average with it and well below without. Also I never really understood why Vega was punished for blocking.

I wouldn’t mind if the super could connect on the way up like his EX Izuna.

(I know these threads are done to death, but I’m bored at work…)


#10

I was really skeptical coming into this thread, but Slorp, those are all damn good suggestions and they are all very level headed. They seem to fix a lot of the actual problems with Vega without making him neccesarily “better.” I love the idea to make EX-Sky High have instant air properties (Like Blanka Ball), and steered Ultra is would definitely be nice and reasonable.

Flying Barcelona is fine how it is, except that it can be easily beat by most characters just doing crouching jab! That is a serious hitbox problem that needs to get addressed.

My one suggestion-

If I could give Vega one buff, and only one buff, I would give him back his slide from ST. That slide won matches. It was all you COULD do in some matches, and you could still rape with it. Vega needs a way to put on pressure and gain momentum in matches and his current slide is a huge hinderance. He needs the safety of his old slide back to give him more options for getting in, building meter safely, and keeping the opponent on his toes.


#11

Sagat isn’t even that bad a matchup for Vega if you ask me. Ryu can be a much larger pain in the ass.


#12

Personally, I’d like the mask gimmick to be retained, just polished.
For a start, don’t make the health penalty kick in until damage scaling resests. The mask has a tendancy to fly off mid combos, and this is really bad news for a lot of Ultras that do all the damage with the final hit.

After that, I’m fine with the health penalty, as long as the damage boost is worth it. I think the health down, damage up idea is based on him generally shown as going completely off on one whenever his face is at risk. Changing his voice clips to this ‘completely lost it’ persona during this time would also be kind of cool.

As for giving Scarlet Terror invincibility, I think this’d be a bit boring. It just turns it into a crap SRK. I think Bison’s route is a better idea - slap hefty invincibility on EX Crystal instead. This way he’s still vulnerable to pressure, but he has a way out with bar. I’ve no problem with him being weak defensively as long as he has something to compensate.

My biggest worry is that Capcom either overdoes it on him and he ends up as the next Sagat, or they balance him by just making him more like everyone else…


#13

Whoa! Want


#14

These threads keep coming up but your suggestions seem the most sound.
All i want is some invincibility on my ST and Ultra and to get rid of the mask loss penalty.


#15

EX Scarlet Terror - give it complete start up invincibility. Every other character has one, it’s time for Vega. So it would be 1~4f invincibility. This makes it comparable to Guile’s EX Flash Kick, but Guile’s is also invincible on the first active frame (his is 1~5f invincibility). So this makes it easier for opponents to trade with it than with Guile’s EX Flash. Regular Scarlet Terrors should be unchanged, so don’t worry it doesn’t make this move like shoryuken - I want this change on the EX only.

Claw and Mask - cannot be removed. This gimmick should end now. There are suggestions from others, but I just think Vega does not need a handicap on top of already having low stun and putting out low damage.

c.HK (slide) - Slightly safer. It’s only safe at the absolute furthest ranges. Let it be safe from a little closer than it currently. I don’t want it to be broken, just it’s safest range extended a little.

EX Barcelona - always slashes twice, unless you’re doing the Izuna Drop of course.

Super - increase damage moderately. Say from 330 to 390. Any incentive to actually use it is a good thing.

Ultra - increase damage moderately. Say from 300/450 to 330/495. Chip damage from a max of 23 to a max of 45-50 or so.

Rolling Crystal Flash - Cannot be punished before the final hit during block sequences. I’m sure it’s as simple as changing the frame data slightly. Also, change start up on EX RCF from 20 to 16 (same as MP RCF).

df.MK (Piece of Mercury) - decrease range to be equal to Fei Long’s overhead (f.mk). Make an overhead. I feel if it was an overhead at its current range it would be a little ridiculous. However, it’s already comparable in frame data to Fei Long’s Overhead. If frame data was kept the same but the range shortened and made an overhead, then compared to Fei Long, Vega would have: 1 frame longer startup, 2 frames longer active, and have worse data on block and hit (Fei = -4,+1 Vega = -5, -1). The longer active would be compensated by the frame advantages being worse.

I’ll miss the super long range of Piece of Mercury - I actually used it sometimes since it surprised people with the range. But shortening it and making it an overhead is a better option. If it’s not broken on Fei Long, then it won’t be broken on Vega - especially with worse frame advantages.

The only thing I wasn’t specific on was c.HK (slide) properties. I’m not sure how much exactly closer in it should be safe. But besides the slide, everything I suggested is in quantifiable frame and damage terms. Perhaps other changes are needed for the Super and Ultra than a buff in damage, but I’ll yield to listening to others’ advice there. Nothing I listed would propel Vega to top tier, but it would certainly help his chances to compete.


#16

I want invincibility on ST an damage up on mask loss! Uhm… and maybe a better lp rcf? There’s actually no point in using the mp and hp version.
There was no real point in ST and there is no real point in SFIV. Lp RCF was a great long range poke, that, if it hits just with the tip of his claw could beat ANYTHING with its high priority.
That’s all. Make him be beasty without his mask. Make him do some real damage with his pokes, so he can win easier.


#17

I want to be able to do the Red Impact when we lose the mask.
The backflip must cancel the step animation after a barcelona attack or a sky high claw.


#18

The mask and claw falling off is a given, those need to go. Or at least provide some real advantages to counteract the monumental disadvantages. Maybe make it so block/FA damage doesn’t count towards the mask/claw coming off?

Quicker startup on all of Vega’s wall moves would do wonders. Trying to get to the wall for SHC, Barcelona, or Ultra, when close to players means you will get stuffed before getting off the ground.

Invincibility on ST startup would help heaps.

Counterhit ST being jugglable into Ultra? The Ultra animation goes right through the character. Imagine being able to follow up a lk ST counterhit with Ultra instead of EX ST. :smiley:

What if the Izuna Drop command was punch + DOWN instead of to the side. Left and Right are used for aiming the dive, I think it’d make landing Izunas on grounded targets much more reliable. This wouldn’t really make the character any more or less powerful, just less annoying to control, right up there with the needless Ultra motion change.

Make the f+mk move an actual overhead maybe?

I dunno, just some thoughts off the top of my head after playing through a couple championships. Don’t take anything too seriously lol.


#19

Hmm, if it’s counter hit or anti-air only and off of LK Scarlett Terror only… then that seems quite reasonable - especially considering the juggle options that characters such as Ryu and Rufus already have. Make it so Capcom where ever you are, and also add my changes too…


#20

Honestly I’d prefer they didn’t change much. I like not having any invincibility: it’s key to Vega’s character. Giving ST invincibility would be taking the easy way out. There’s a way Vega can retain all of his attributes (ie not gaining invincibility) while still being a strong contender.

maybe give his back dash MORE invincibility. Or perhaps buff it to be the straight up best back dash. Gen / Dhalsim go further and Chun / Fuerte are quicker. Why is that? They all have moves that give them invincibility, though they all suffer from the same problem as Vega (lack of capability dealing with pressure). Another change could be to give Vega more reach on his focus. You can use this move to run away really well since it’s range is long and you can cancel it into a back dash.

I agree with making his slide safer. I still get punished by stuff that makes me go :\ it’s great for punishing from a distance, i mean you can punish full screen whiffs by taking a few steps and sliding. but as far as footsies goes, it’s a big risk… it also gets COMPLETELY demolished by a focus attack

Increasing the hitbox on the Izuna would work wonders. If that could be a threatening move, Vega could be a threatening character.

I hope they don’t change much. I have way too much fun with Vega to want him be changed drastically… although I’m sure that would never happen.

The faster wall jumps (from the ground) and the idea that they are airborne the second they are activated are good suggestions too. I got ultra’d once by Zangief as I was glowing with EX using an EX wall dive… i was like O____O

EDIT: The situational ultra set ups are great ideas too. Doesn’t matter if they’re situational: if they’re there, that’s what matters.
EDIT 2: I’m also against removing the claw and mask gimmick. If Vega were a stronger character then it wouldn’t be such a joke anyway. I mean it’s like people said, Vega is weak then he has to deal with this. If they just made him stronger than the claw and mask removal would be a very interesting part of the game. Maybe decrease the health handicap on the mask removal.