Reading combos like music


#27

There’s only one forward dash. Forward on the stick then forward again. It’s clear that the button needs to be pressed after the SRK motion is complete. And for just frame inputs you could just color them oddly or have some annotation on the side, like flats and sharps.
Also, if you want to represent plinking you could write it like grace notes. To plink MP with LP you would have MP and then have a small line to a small LP to show plinking.


#28

There’s a few things to iron out but this is a really good idea. Hope you continue working on this. Kudos!


#29

I’d entertained thoughts of this myself before, but this is a pretty sweet design. A couple thoughts:

  • It might be a good idea to place the double joystick inputs (e.g. for dashes, ultra, etc.) as side-by-side instead of stacking them vertically. Doing this could help with inputs where you want to buffer particular inputs at particular times.

  • Seconding deadfrog on the big potential value of distance between button presses to aid with timing. This bar notation with frame counts in between button presses works for shorthand, but might not work so well when trying to copy it in real time. Using distances also enables you to draw “zones” for minimum/maximum delay time to the next input.

  • Combining this with a slow-motion mode (e.g. 50% speed, 33% speed, etc.) can definitely help with drilling combo inputs. It isn’t uncommon for musicians to take a tricky segment at a slower speed to build muscle memory for it.

  • Held buttons/negative edge could actually be represented in the same way that DDR/ITG/etc. does hold notes: using a long bar with a length corresponding to the amount of time to keep it held down. When the long bar ends is when the button is to be released.

  • Since the lights, mediums, and heavies share the same color, have you considered putting P/K/PK inside the buttons? You could also cut the “staff” (for Street Fighter) down to only three different notes if you do so.

It’d be pretty sweet to get something like this in a training mode some day.


#30

whats really useful about this is when its used to do link combos. it is not needed for standard combos, the normal into special or special into fadc etc dont need to be put on sheet like this because they speak for themselves. but for links purposes, this is truly great. if you think about it, when doing link combos you dont just go for the visual, you also have a rythem or timing when hitting the links. i dont play music, but ive had the same ideas that work for music inside of me for a very long time even though i dont play it. a lot of people actually do. timing is crucial in any fighter that has links, people who play instruments or that have good timing/rythem automatically have a better understanding and easier time doing links.

imo a top musical instrument player like those top pianists that play the hardest pieces of piano, those level 5 pieces (theres probably only a couple 100 or 1000 of these people worldwide, just a guess btw), they should in theory be able to do the hardest combos and links easily because of their timing.

this being said, desk is a good example of a musician playing a fighter and doing those links. on the flip side, if sako doesnt already play an instrument he sure is a person who would excel in playing one and learn it much faster than the average musician.


#31

There ARE nuances that are different between every game though. If you go from SF4 to Guilty Gear, you have different buttons, different mechanics, all of which could be notated in one form or another. If this winds up taking off, I’m sure the communities would figure out ways to notate various things much like as different effects and sounds came into being musically, composers figured out ways to notate them. The basic idea itself would remain the same though.

As a musician myself, I already find this easier to work with than long-ass strings of nonsense. It would make learning combos for games like Guilty Gear and KoFXIII a hell of a lot easier imo.


#32

… obviously there are nuances that are different between games. The only thing that should have to change are the buttons on the left. If shorthand is put in to account for all of those differences then it becomes problematic for people using this as a notation format on a game they’re unfamiliar with.

As for held buttons the hold and release could both be hollow circles.

I still don’t see why plinking would be included. Plinking is just a technique to aid in execution. If people are going to plink they should learn to do so independently of this and insert them as necessary.


#33

Why do you keep putting the motions out of order or stacking them in weird ways? If the Y-axis is time, just put everything in order.


#34

The biggest potential advantage for this would be to notate timing, which conventional notation doesn’t do. As both a musician and a rhythm game player, the most frustrating thing for me in learning new combos/techniques/etc. is trying to identify when to do things by timing–and the inability to do this makes it much harder for me to show someone else how to do it as well.


#35

Video+sound= problem solved.

When I’m talking about sound I’m talking about button press sound.


#36

I guess I’m crazy, but I really don’t see how this:

Is easier to read than this:

cr.LK, cr.LP, LP xx Shoryuken xx FADC Ultra

or this:

cr.:lk:, cr.:lp:, :lp: xx :dp::mp: xx FADC :qcf::qcf::lp::mp::hp:

or this:

2LK, 2LP, 5LP xx 623MP xx FADC 236236PPP

The only possible advantage you could get from complicating the notation in such a way is the ability to represent time, but even in that case, it would be better to place everything on the same line instead of a different line for each button, and only use additional lines when additional inputs are necessary. Example (not graphical because I’m bad at that stuff, but hopefully you get the idea):



-------------------SRK---Dash-QCFQCF 
cr.LK---cr.LP--LPxxMPxxMP    -LP----
---------------------xxMK    -MP----
------------------------------HP----


#37

Interesting idea, and I see merit in the timing argument. But how does it represent motions like followup dashes, which can be dependent on screen location?

I also imagine a whole thread filled with musical charts would look very cluttered and could become bloated, even if each combo list is spoilered.


#38

It’s better than nothing for sure, but it’s also pretty attention-dominant. For someone ADD as I am, having to keep playing and rewinding really slows the process down, whereas if I could just look I could pick it up much faster.


#39

This would be great as an app.


#40

Do you know why my piano recitals are always so turtle-y?

Because I’m holding down Bach. :cool:


#41

Would just like to say as a fairly new SSFIV player who has just started to read up on combos I actually find this easier to read. An app that let you write, add and save combos to a database for each character so you could refer to easily on the fly would be really cool.


#42

If I could listen to the notes play the beat of the combo that would be helpful. I like the way they do it in Tekken. Though its easier for me to hear the combo in Tekken 5 then Tekken tag. I can’t quite remember if Tekken six had the same sound effect as 5. It be cool if some device could record a players inputs. So that if they got the combo right once. They could listen to the beat of a successfully executed combo over and over again. I think all games should just have something like that anyway. Like Tekken! (Even though its harder for me to listen to the new sound effect…perhaps there should be multiple options to suite your learning style).

I’d like to listen to the beat. Cause I read sheet music incredibly slow. I don’t do it regularly but I remember that all cows eat grass!


#43

I think you’re going to have real difficulty implementing a timing component since any style metronome is not going to jive well with arrhythmic combos. like you’ve got a metronome going, it’s clear from the metronome what the time is, then one of your inputs 3/64ths off from the downbeat. that’s going to fuck people up.

maybe the metronome counts you in and you get a visual aid showing you the speed of the bar. like a running head start before you get to the inputs. but I’d imagine you want the actual combo to move without a metronome aid.

the graph works fine but will be conceived of best as a DDR-style readout moving along a timeline at an expected pace, and not sheet music with a defined time signature I think.


#44

This is a fantastic idea. Like a few people have already mentioned, the fact that you could read time between button presses is really important.


#45

I’d be a bit concerned about compactness with this layout; for what you’ve shown now it’s not so bad but I’d think now about what happens when users try writing much longer combos with it. Would it be plausible to add a way to denote repeated parts of input and some means of inserting game-specific abbreviations/special symbols? Personally I’d also consider giving the punch and kick rows a slightly different tint so that all 6 buttons can be distinguished by color as well as their vertical position on the sheet.

Also if it hasn’t already been mentioned, you could consider having the viewer you’re developing generate input sequences as GIFs with a moving “highlight” on the current input in the sequence. This could be one way to distribute these input sheets in a way that shows timing directly and covers combos too large for the screen without requiring users to download a viewer.


#46

it has great potencial guys! Just a thought… Could you make the graphic in a way that is easier to read the option selects in a game while silverlining the priority button?. Because neat combos looks great, but who nowadays only press the essential buttons? Everybody is always option-selecting stuff.