Real Talk: Does Juri have "It"

juri

#1

Disclaimer: I will still play as Juri and continue to rep her. I Do believe everything that I say here however I am daring the boards to prove me wrong and help me (and others) find ways to win.

Real talk. Being at NEC showed me something very interesting. First thing I’m going to do is pull up the accepted “Tier list” for SSF4. Top characters are Honda, Bison, Guile and Chun-Li. After that is Balrog, Cammy, Ryu, Abel, Dhalsim, Rufus, Sagat, Seth.

Now lets look at the results of NECXI

  1. EG.Justin Wong (Rufus, Cammy)
  2. TFA.Wolfkrone (C. Viper)
  3. DMG.PR Rog (Balrog)
  4. EG.Marn (Dudley)
  5. DMG.WeakSauce (Sagat)
  6. EMP.Sanford Kelly (Sagat, C. Viper, Ryu)
  7. FYC.MarlinPie (Cammy)
  8. DMG.Lud (Chun-Li)
  9. TS.Arturo Sanchez (Dhalsim, Rose)
  10. FYC.KDZ (Abel, Rufus)
  11. DMG.Dr. Chaos (Ken, Akuma)
  12. L.I. Joe (Sagat)

Not one Honda, not one Guile. A Chun-li player that made it to 7th place. Thats interesting. If these characters are so good, why is everyone not jumping on this bandwaggon? Hell, the person who took 2nd place is playing a character who is MID TIER. Hell only 2 spots higher than Juri. Wait…if thats the case…then Juri should have the same shot as a Viper, right?

Wrong.

Out of those players there is only one player that played a character that was NOT rush down. Arturo. Out of the top 12 players there, only one of them made it far enough. His sim is nasty and could have made it that far alone.

I’m very interested in the idea that Rushdown = Money in this game. You see, Laming will only get you so far. If your character isnt the more lame in the match, you will lose. But rush down kills all. It doesn’t matter what character you play as, you can rush them down with smart reads, option selects, and tight execution. You see, if your rushdown and execution is good, then it comes down to how good your opponents defense is and ability to escape.

Here is the problem. Everyone will fall to a superior rush down game and proper mix up. Thats just how it goes. With Frametraps and throw mix up you’re goign to get damage.

Now. About Juri. With all of that being said. Can she really pressure the cast? I mean, yes…Vega, Viper, Rose, Makoto, Cody, all of these characters yes. But really…can she really cause a good player to let up their guard against Honda, or Balrog, or Cammy?

Juri has limitations. Her walk speed is horrible, so she cant really frame trap. Even a s.lk walk loop is limited to her hitbox and her walk speed, where as rufus or Balrog can do it much longer with much better results. Juri’s normals are horrible so on block shes at minus on a lot of them. This means she cant frame trap with them properly.

Her dive kicks are unsafe and height restricted. This means that she cant instant dive kick for pressure. It’s also BAD that its a KD move and cant combo off of it. If you get the hit, it doesnt corner the person unless you hit all 3 (most of the time it whiffs), you dont get a lot of damage. You dont have the mix up of a cross up (at least its something im working on for setups), and your not safe on block. Why would I use this if I’m looking to win? Cammy and Rufus are far better choices and have vastly superior rush down.

Fireballs. She has a very good fireball game that is unfortunately limited due to her inability to use buttons when they are stored. Because of this, she cant use c.lk when has a low, cant use s.mk when storing a mid, and cant jump in combo when she has a high stored. If you want to admit it or not, this is limiting. Her most important fireball is her low fireball. THis also means she cant start off a hit confirm low with her c.lk and she cant tech throws. Her mk is an important button. Its her longest poke, it beats throw attempts and is her best cross up. Her HK is different, there has never been a time where I beat myself up for having the round house stored. But with all of this said…her fireball game actually limits her in important ways. Guile doesnt have to give up anything for his fireball game. Ryu has all of his options while diong fireballs. Gouken has low, mid, high and he can still use all of hsi buttons. So why would I use a character like this?

Pinwheel. Its a sexy move but real talk…its not safe. You have to space it perfectly and can only use lk. It doesn’t lead to a KD, and unless youre punishing or using a hit confirm off a ONE FRAME LINK, you’re not going to use HK unless your willing to take the risk. All of them can be thrown out of, and none of them are really fast on start up. Lets look at others that move horizontally. Tiger Knee, Rush Punches, Scissor kicks, Thunder Knuckle. These are all better options. TK can be safe, rushes are safe, scissors are safe and traps. Thunder Knuckle deals heavy stun and can trap an opponent if done right. Why would I pick Juri and use a far inferior attack when these characters have better rush down options, most have safe reversals, and much better moves that move horizontally.

All of these things makes me wonder. Are we playing for fun? Are we playing to win money? Are we playing because we have to kill time? If you’re looking to win big, you shouldnt be playing Juri. Real talk. Thats the harsh reality of it. Because you can dispute any one of those things, you cant dispute that she has tools that are on the level of those that are winning money.

I’m daring you all to prove me wrong because…I want to be proven wrong.


#2

you can’t hit confirm into hk pinwheel because you can’t hit confirm one frame links.

juri’s fine, though, and she’s only set to get better in AE

i really don’t understand why you think a new character should be out winning tournaments when people haven’t had the time to develop her like… Oh, I don’t know… Rufus, C Viper, Balrog, etc.

Duds lucks out because he has a character specialist playing him. And that character specialist happens to have some of the best execution out of anyone who plays the game.

Everyone else has been played since SFIV arcade, or, barring that, console version. We didn’t even discover that Cammy was good until relatively recently, maybe you just need to step your shit up?


#3

not going to prove you wrong bro, i told you in the other thread, i didnt think juri was going to get far in tourneys, I play juri online and in some casuals, but when i need to pull out a win offline i always throw down with abel, id only pick juri vs her good matchups like Sim, Gief, Hawk or Rufus and even then this hasnt happened to me so might even just end up with going for Abel. Id like for someone to prove me wrong, but talk is for forums, action is for tourneys. Otherwise we can only hope things improve come AE.


#4

i’m sooooo tired of threads like these. real talk this whole entire forum just need to stfu and step their shit up. like people said adon was @SS until gamerbee came to the light. so just like reali said, step it up or switch characters.


#5

I accept your challenge of proving you wrong. Watch for me at majors next year.


#6

I have to agree. Its also an interesting point, because soooo often I’ve heard people calling it Super Turtle Fighter 4. Yet somehow, rushdown characters are the ones prevailing. Very good example on that list is Dudley, who isn’t considered much better than Juri on paper, yet Marn has still been taking him places. And Dudley is also a rushdown character.

Of course, I also feel people put too much merit into tier lists. The player is a much bigger part in the equation than the character. A top player who dedicated himself to it could take even Dan places :stuck_out_tongue: I truly feel there’s no reason why we couldn’t see Juri in a tournament top 12, even without AE changes.

I also found this interesting, because I’ve been doing some soulsearching about why I’m losing so much more than winning, even compared to other Juri players. And I’ve reached the conclusion that the problem is that I play lame. I’ve even tried playing recklessly, taking big risks, and I always win more often that way.

Even then, I’ll still play Juri, because I just like the character. My motivation is entertainment purely, and Juri just is fun. And really, if you’re playing street fighter to earn money, you’ve made some bad calculations somewhere. Even if you won all the tournaments in a year, you could still make more money working a normal day job with all the time you spent training street fighter.

Btw, one interesting tier list to look at is based on actual tournament matches.


#7

IMO, Make her worth it. Use her most optimum moves, and tactics to there full extent, never lose confidants or motivation . Every match up including the bad ones can be learned and overcome.

She has great tools you just gotta use them in the right situations.** Some characters at times just have to work harder then others HOWEVER some people just dont got the patients or skill for it.**

Its the same way i felt when using fei in vanilla.

I’ve used to think the same thing foreal until i saw NEO’s Juri


#8

I play Juri because she is such a fun character and it’s great to have the chance to do things nobody has done before since she’s totally new.

That being said, she does have a lot of disadvantages, some of which will be reduced in AE. Still, Juri herself is a difficult character to master, but when it happens and you’re taking the match, it just feels awesome.

One of the great things about SSF4 is that tier lists are almost meaningless. Like deice said, there’s gamerbee’s Adon, Cammy has recently been used a lot. It just takes time.


#9

She’s got it.


#10

Ill respond to all of your responses

Yes, you’re right. Its on my immediate things to improve on. But here is my point. By the time you hit the cmp you’re doing am ove that hits deep. No way to confirm the mp. You can confirm the hit off the c.lk but you cant confirm that you hit the 1f link. And if you miss it, full combo. Thats bad. Its not like some other characters that you’re still safe like fei long or Rufus, or Viper.

Juri is not fine, and her list of improvements in AE don’t sound like they’re gonna address her normals, or specials that are not safe at all.

Yes, and no. Yes in that I’ll agree, juri has untapped potential and I believe it’s hidden in FSE. I think FSE can be broken to hell once people start using it in full mix up mode…not just “Hope for the overhead!”. There is a lot about juri that is untapped. At NEC no juri was fadcing into ultra 2 (Although Bluenine hit the corner 1f fuhajin > ultra…he was shocked as I was, lol). But no in that her fundamentals are still going to be lacking. I dont need it to be “developed” to see that there are gaping holes in her offense. Her normals are ass, her walk speed and throw range are ass, her specials arent great, and she takes great risk to get in. Thats NOT good.

I assume we’re talking abotu marn. See this is the thing about dudley though…it was clear that his pressure is amazing from the start. Everyone said “oh shit, i dont want dudley on me at all…this is bad”, but everyone agreed he has some lacking skills. To prove my point above, his rushdown is soooo good, that all he has to do is get in once and take the persons life. Which again…prove my point that its very important to have rushdown ability to win.

Yo fall back. Who the fuck didn’t say Cammy was good in Vanilla? I always thought Cammy, Fei, Guile were great characters that were a buff or two away from being amazing characters. And look at them now.

Sim, Gief, and Rufus aren’t good match ups for juri. Sim looks good on paper but a good sim will never let you in. You have to rely on some lucky shit like kicking a limb or Sim taking a huge risk. If he doesnt Yoga Fire, you wont get in. Gief is a nightmare. Yes, you can fireball him back but he can just walk forward. He gets in once, its lights out for juri. Rufus…same deal as gief. Once hes in, its good night. His Dive kick mix up is too good. You have to take a huge risk to get out of rufus mix up.

Maybe no ones looking at the proper things, but Adon I always thought would be a nightmare. Once I found out his Jagga Kick could be cancelled from an air attack and you can combo off the shit…I said “This is bad, he can get in…”. I thought then it would be only a matter of tiem before someone really good comes out with adon and starts running train. Then I saw his throw and walk speed and said “wow…this could get bad”.

Step it up? Thats why Im doing this thread. This thread aint to just trash juri. This thread is to say “no kail, here is what you need to **do and overcome these things”. **Or “Yo, her rush down is top of the line son! Here is where your wrong!”

Aiight, how about you help me out now though…I gotta up my shit before ECT!!! lol.

As I said above, Dudley isn’t much better than Juri on paper…but consider this. He has a quick overhead, he has fast walk speed, and really strong jab game which he can link to target combos. He also has an ultra that he can combo into really easily. As you said, he’s rushdown…and my Original Theory is that Rushdown is the most important factor in this game

^^^This. I’ve tried to find a safe way to play juri on rush down but after seeing Inthuls Fei Long I came to the conclusion that maybe Juri should take more risks. I’ll give you a few examples. I used to scoff at those people who would throw Pinwheels out wrecklessly. I used to say “That shit aint smart!” I used to think “wow these people are so damn garbage”. But then I saw inthul use flame kicks like it was going out of style. The crazy part is that he didn’t really get punished because he never whiffed it. So then I said “wait…there has to be a reason behind it”.

There must be a way to use pinwheels like that on the offensive in an educated risk. This is something I must look at more.

Not to be a dick, but what are some of her great tools? I went to the pain to show that her specials are kinda ass and not really that great…maybe I missed something. Can you explain these great tools?

I wanna punch you.


#11

IN regards to your response to what i said:

You can only learn so much from other people. You know probably as much as I do with Juri, its all a matter of your playstyle, and how you apply your knowledge, along with being able to play outside of your comfort zone when necessary (and not make stupid mistakes). You cant learn to not be nervous at a major from someone else, you cant really emulate someone elses play style if it doesnt mesh with your own. Just absorb as much as you can from other players, and try to incorporate it into your own play.

Sorry if what i said was off the mark at all, again, just throwin in my two cents.

  • K1

btw, Juri’s normals are godlike. Seriously.


#12

Cammy was considered a garbage character for the longest time and no one thought she was any good until Sanford busted her out at Evo 09. Even then, she didn’t see heavy use or a rise up the tier list until SSFIV.

So in otherwords, no you fall the fuck back. Cammy didn’t get shit in SSFIV and she’s one of the best characters in the game.

Juri’s got problems, but they’re problems had by other characters as well that do fine in tournaments.

The only problem is that the only player I’ve seen that takes Juri to ‘that level’ is Floe atm.


#13

Yes, Juri is not as good as other characters, but the difference in tiers in super is not enough to say that you cannot win against certain characters. From what I’ve seen in tourneys, for the most part, the better player wins. I’m also assuming that capcom did their absolute best to balance AE, so just chill until then. We won’t know the full extent of the changes until it comes out and we play it for ourselves, so there’s no point making any assumptions.

I, personally, will stick with her because i think super street fighter is a very balanced game, and think AE will be even more so.

Also, I think if Infiltration (from Korea) came down to America and played in all the tournaments, none of us would be having this conversation.


#14

K1: On an unrelated note, it’s crazy that we main the same characters in BBCS and SSFIV. Unblockable 22D setups, ftw :smiley:

When it comes to Juri, I feel that she’s a character with solid normals and has the ability to control space well. You just have to be on point with your execution the majority of the time, make sure that you’re properly using her normals and linking into her specials wisely. In regard to utilizing her fireball game, it really comes down to experience. Everyone has their opinion and I’m got gonna bother trying to prove someone wrong over personal views. Juri is the main reason why I still play SSFIV (I was playing mainly BB for the longest) and I’m gonna stick with her regardless in tournaments.


#15

lol he played juri once at evo, hes an akuma main and hed probably stick with him.


#16

Ya i know, but then he want back in the lab, and started to dominate with her in Korea.


#17

Again, I didnt think she was garbage at all. I always thought that people wanted to do things like her hooligan throw and her spinning backfist. But honestly, her spikes and swipes were top of the line. Mix in with her walk speed, and her throwing ability, I alawys thought she was good. Now in SSF4, everyone got nerfed and her strengths started to show.

Because the tiers got fucked up due to people getting nerfed. But the ability to rush down was always there.

Such as what? Poor specials, normals that are not really that good unless shes in FSE mode? Poor wake up? Id like to hear more about this.

Ability to control space well. That I will agree on. But I find that her normals up close are not good enough to use up close. A lot of them are - on block and some on hit! You have to be able to cancel them. Once you do that though you lose your frame advantage and your spacing. This is bad. For an example…just can run train on people in the corner but there is a certain amount of turns that can be done. On wake up one can jump in, normal xx mid release > normal xx low release > normal xx sempusha. At this point the person is at a safe distance. YOu can do things to increase pressure but all of it can be beaten by a Reversal. Not even trade. Beaten. Once you’re throw is teched, your back at square one. they’re in the corner but you’re no longer at an advantage.

Her corner game is strong, but not stronger than most. Not only this but against a good player they’re defense will easily beat her offense. This isn’t character specific. Even vega can wait and block and tech. Juri cant go forever.

I saw floe at NEC. I meant to ask him about Juri…I was a little nervous to talk to him really.


#18

lolol unblockable 22D ftw <3 Tsubaki is kinda like Juri in a way…I feel like shes underrated. Juri moreso, but Tsubaki is always a wildcard IMO.

By the way, I firmly disagree with whoever is saying Juri doesnt have good normals outside of FSE. She is one of the best characters overall for AAing, and she has pretty good pokes overall. Learn to use them correctly and youll see what I’m talking about.


#19

I am playing Juri a lot cause I really liked the character even when just anounced her… I was a Rufus player back then and started to play her cause I liked her… and sadly I have to agree with everything u sayd.

She has great AA options but everything else are only ok or even worse…

Ppl like to say “mimimi u just dont play hard enough, u have to explore more” and all that garbage, but ppl dont realise that characters with a chance, usually have some flaws but have a major good point. Juri lacks that…

She has good Ultra? relying on ultra 1 for rushdown?

Well… I don’t intent to stop playing her, but the fact is simply that… I really wanted to be proved wrong as well… but more time passes, less ppl play her and even less ppl show some good stuff with her… tournament worh or not…


#20

basically i pretty much gathered that i fucking hate the juri forums. and that most of the people here suck. shin shom please be quiet. juri’s ultra 2 is good if you even bothered to practice the set ups… but like i said, the real problem is that most juri mainers just really suck ass at using her. and no wonder they do, because instead of leveling up ya’ll rather bitch and moan.