Regarding throws in hdremix


#1

actually, i’ve been wondering about this for awhile.

  1. for something like balrogs headbutt, honda’s bearhug, or sim’s noogie… assuming you get caught, what’s the best way to escape and avoid the most damage? is it pressing the buttons? moving the stick (if so, which directions in particular let’s you escape faster), or is it really a combination of both? i’d like someone to answer if they know the real properties regarding this.

and if you get caught, assuming the victim doesn’t do anything - what’s the max damage you can do before your character releases them?

  1. i’m under the impression that command throws always have priority over regular throws, regardless how fast you are mashing the regular throw? (like zangief spd vs everyone else fierce throws). in other games like cvs2, and sf4… when both players go for the throw, they cancel out and break. in hdremix, player 1 or 2 will always get some kind of throw in, but how does the computer decide who get’s it in (assuming both throws are same priority and both players mashing at equal speed).

  2. (in order) who has the strongest (normal) throw priorities? i’m under the impression that throws that drain damage (like blanka’s bite) will always beat ryu’s regular throw for example - assuming both players are mashing at the same speed etc. but at the same time, some throws like bison’s or chun li’s seem to have very good priority (or am i running into people who can mash throw with them faster than me?).

  3. and for someone like bison, sagat, balrog, etc… who have the same animation throw whether you press strong or fierce… is 1 better than the other to mash with when trying to connect?

i don’t think i saw this anywhere so i had to ask.


#2
  1. Move your stick or pad as fast as you can and mash buttons

  2. Command throws>Normal Throws

  3. Normal throws all have the same priority, but if you and your opponent throw at the exact same time, then the results are 50/50 on who actually gets the throw.

  4. http://nki.combovideos.com/data.html#distance


#3

Also the quicker you respond and start mashing, the better chance you have at escaping early. It seems at times that how quick you start mashing is more important than how fast you actually mash. Also shake the control stick between diagonals. (Up+Forward to Down+Back or Up+Back to Down+Forward.) Each direction from neutral registers as an input so by going between diagonals you get two inputs for every movement of the joystick.

Also, choose your mashing buttons appropriately. With Honda it’s best to mash with kicks so that you don’t wake up into the Hundred Hand Slap; that could be bad. Same applies for Blanka and Chun. The rest of the cast just mash the :lk:, :lp:, :mp: and :hp: buttons.

I don’t know of any test that has proven this conclusively but based on experience I tend to agree.

I would however like to see a test of this. Where the characters are both within their throw range, and both of the throws are executed on the same frame. It would be hard to test in Remix but easier with an emulated version of SF2.

Except in the case of the reversal throw. In the case of the tick throw the opponent has a 1 frame advantage on throws, the reversal frame. The opponent is still in hit/block stun and cannot be thrown, but the opponent can throw the attacker on the reversal frame.

In this case I believe a normal throw would also beat out a command throw.


#4

reversal throw beats command throws.


#5

Not according to [media=youtube]6i1TPQQ_AVA"[/media]. Reversal throws should lose to command throws when they are performed at the same time. The only (possible) exception I can think of is during wake up games, because you can throw in between the first frame you get up, meaning you can throw your opponent from a non-throwable state and they cannot grab you.

I believe from tick throws out of hit or block stun you do not have the half frame advantage with reversal throws to beat out command throw ticks. The situation where someone is trying to throw you after you wake up without ticking you beforehand is extremely rare because it makes far more sense to tick into throw rather than try to someone on the first frame that they stand up.

Lastly, though it is rare, reversal throws can sometimes come out as normal moves, even if they are timed perfectly. This is just one of those random occurrences that happens in ST. Even if you are within range for a reversal throw and your opponent is in a throwable state there is a minuscule chance that your reversal normal throw command will come out as a normal attack and you will lose that sequence.

Not only that, but if you are playing as a charge character, and you are caught in a hold, it could be very important to not just twirl or push the stick in every direction. You might want to rotate the stick from UB, to B, to DB in order to preserve your backwards charge (or do the same but preserve a downward charge). If you wiggle the stick to escape a hold and then on your recovery frame you are left without charge you could be setting yourself up for a situation at which you are at a tremendous disadvantage.

:hcb::ub::u::uf:

If you wiggle like this you aren’t charging any direction, you might hit more directional inputs, possibly reducing the damage you take from a hold…but you sacrifice charge meaning you might be setting yourself up for another situation which you are at a major disadvantage.

Let’s say you are playing as Dictator and you have enough meter for SUPER and you want to perform a reversal SUPER after a hold. You can’t struggle all directions or else you will recover sans charge. You need to preserve your charge during your struggle.

:l::ub::l::db::l:

Notice all of these inputs are in the backwards direction. You can buffer the SUPER (within twenty frames I believe in HDR) and then go straight from the release animation of the hold directly into an invincible SUPER. If you mistime the reversal and your opponent goes for a reset tick into throw, you still can try to counter throw (or reversal throw) their throw or hold attempt (providing you are within range and it’s not a command throw).


#6

Any time a character is coming out of hit/block stun there is a reversal frame. And it’s a whole frame, not a half frame. It’s a whole frame where the character has an advantage over the opponent.

It’s your choice whether you perform a reversal move or reversal throw. You have to judge whether you’re in range, and whether you can input the throw exactly on the reversal frame. Otherwise you execute a reversal and get the message. When reversal throwing (unless it’s a command throw) you don’t get the message.


#7

I thought that the way wake up animations worked was you have a frame where you can reversal throw (because you have to be standing to throw unless you are Zangief) but on that frame you cannot be thrown as well. Some frame data lists wake up animations as XX.5 because of that special frame.

Outside of wake up if you are recovering from hit or block stun (such as during a tick throw set up) you must throw on the exact first frame that you recover, meaning you don’t have the extra (half) frame of invincibility to perform a reversal throw before your opponent can. This is why you cannot reversal throw out of (perfect) tick command throws. Your opponent’s command throw is active during your first frame of recovery and you are in a throwable state. You will lose every time if you try to reversal throw a perfect command tick throw. But if your opponent tries to overlap his active command throw frames over your first frame of recovery from wake up, you actually do have an opportunity to reversal counter throw him on that (half) frame of recovery on the end of the wake up animation.

So if you get knocked down and your opponent does a meaty attack on you, and you are within throw range, you can reversal throw them out of the meaty (providing they are within your throw range). This occurs because there is a period of time (expressed as a half frame) where you are standing (and can throw) but you don’t have a blue hitbox yet.

If you are put into stun, you go immediately from stun into either neutral crouch or standing, then there is no frame where you can throw your opponent (with reversal timing) out of a perfect tick.


#8

For characters like Fei Long who has 4 button throws, is it possible to piano a reversal throw?


#9

Anyone can piano a reversal throw with their throw commands providing that your opponent is standing and within range of you for the throw.

Of course with normal throws when you piano you only register an input for a button down. So at most you’ll get four chances with a character who has four throws. With a command throw character you can button down and up the inputs and register a total of six chances. Command throws also usually have more range as well as an added advantage.

With Fei Long your best reversal is probably Flame Kick and SUPER. I’m not sure when you would try to reversal throw as opposed to Flame Kick with Fei Long but I’m no Fei expert so don’t quote me on that.


#10

As i have understood it command throws have no inherent priority over normal throws.

The reason people cannot normal reversal throw a command throw is because Command throws have more range than normal throws in general and therefore you get grabbed from outside your normal throw making your reversal throw pointless.


#11

This is actually super easy to do with characters like Fei, Cammy, and Dee Jay. I do reversal throw attempts with them all the time, and have pretty good success.


#12

no they just aren’t mashing throw hard enough


#13

gaah … ive lost to this sometimes. DO all charachters have the ability to throw you like this ??? im pretty sure ive been thrown like this by Dhalsim and Bison.


#14

Yes. When waking up everyone has a half frame advantage where they have a single frame where they are standing (and thus can throw, jump, or attack) yet they lack a blue hit box (and thus are invulnerable). Here are the wake up animations listed in length in terms of frames. Remember a frame = 1/60 of a second. These are N.Character data from ST and as far as I know none of the wake up animations have changed to HDR.

Claw / Sagat = 80.5
Dhalsim = 82.5
Blanka / Chun / Dictator = 84.5
Guile = 86.5
Honda = 87.5
Ryu / Ken / Fei Long / DJ = 89.5
Cammy / Hawk / Zangief = 90.5
Boxer = 92.5

The reason all of the frame data for wake up animations is listed with units of .5 is because of the special in between frame where you are standing yet invincible.

Let’s take Dictator. Dictator has 84.5 frames of animation listed for his wake up recovery. On frame 84 of Dictator’s wake up animation he is actually in standing position, so he can reversal throw or SUPER to beat any meaty attacks, he can also jump from this frame as well and normal attack (though those will lose to meaty attacks). On frame 84, though Dicatator is registered as standing, he is actually invincible and cannot be thrown or attacked until the very next frame, frame 85.

So on frame 84 Dictator, because the game registers him as standing, can jump, reversal throw, reversal attack, or attack, but he cannot be thrown or attacked because of the special properties of wake up animations and the ST engine. However, on frame 85 he immediately becomes open to throws and attacks and returns to standing normal state in terms of vulnerability.

Hence the .5 data for wake up animations.


#15

ok so this would explain why i sometimes get thrown right out of my meaty into tick throw attempt with chun


#16

Correct. If your opponent is reversal throwing you out of meaty attacks there are ways of beating them. You can use a meaty attack that is safe from reversal throws by doing the attack out of your opponent’s throw range. Also you can use Chun’s instant overhead (which has insane priority) during wake up games if you think your opponent is mashing reversal throws as well.


#17

thanks for the tip.
it acctually makes sense , the two meaty attacks ive been thrown out of with chun is c.lk and c.mk(close) , wich would be well within the throw range of Dhalsim and Bison.

on a side note:
the best meaty attack chun has is the neckbreaker if you do it early enough so they have to block it low. it also sets up a very good throw opportunity for chun if the opponent blocks. I find the instant overhead very risky and kinda hard to pull off sometimes. I usually do it when i have a safe lead and i got my opponent cornered.


#18

Has anyone read my FAQ regarding this? :slight_smile:

VirtualFighterFour, the guys that have been responding to you have it right. Reversal throws ALWAYS beat any other throw because they are being performed one frame before the attacker can throw. It’s that simple. The attacker can’t throw if they’re being thrown…and they can’t throw any sooner than they tried to throw…so they’ll lose every time.

The only time a reversal throw doesn’t work is when the opponent is outside of their throw range. That’s the only situation.


#19

There are instances where someone will walk up close to you in order to bait a reversal flame kick, block, then punish you for it.

Or they would cross you up into combo or throw.

Reversal throws would be a good solution to those situations if you anticipate it.


#20

Something worth knowing that I haven’t seen mentioned yet (sorry if I missed it), is that there’s a period of time right after standing up from a knockdown where you can not be thrown, but can throw your opponent. 13 frames, if I’m remembering right.