Reversal Special Move vs Reversal Ultra

Ok so I will need to go into a bit of back story for this:

I have been teaching my friend how to play Street Fighter and he is still in his early stages. Even though he has been playing the game for quite some time, he still does some weird habits such as random DPs, not being able to finish a combo and definately the worst one, mashing an Ultra during my combos.

Now most of these would be okay as long as the player understands that what he’s doing is bad habits and need to be fixed. However, he defends the Ultra habit and says that it is intentional and very useful. I always tell him that a reversal DP is a much better option but this is his defense:

  1. A reversal Ultra does MUCH more damage than a reversal DP or special move.
  2. It is just as useful. It can hit someone during their block string/combo and it teaches them a HARD lesson to not mess up again and it can even give me wins.
  3. You have to sacrifice 2 super bars to make a reversal safe. So if you know you are going to lose a round, why waste 2 meters of super to try and stay in the match when you can just use an Ultra and if it hits, you have made a great comeback or better yet, won the round! And if it misses or if they block it then oh well, I was going to lose anyway.
  4. I dont see why people frown upon wakeup/reversal Ultras when they are much more useful than a DP.

I do tell him that people really don’t respect someone that mashes Ultra but he doesn’t care. My friends who are my skill level play him and they aren’t impressed at his attempt at a comeback. Also, I do always purposely end my blockstrings to watch him fly away and I get a free punish on him.

I understand that people can play however they want to and in VERY rare occasions, an Ultra can be useful in this situation but I want to try and improve his game and convince him that what he’s going wont get him very far in his SF journey.

So what do you guys think? Should I just let him continue to believe that Ultra > DP? Is there anything else I can say or show him that can convince him that an Ultra is a bad idea? And what are your thoughts on wakeup/reversal Ultra’s in comparison to wakeup/reversal DPSs?

Both of them are awful but ultra is worse for sure.As a Ryu player I do know that a SRK when someone is pressuring you can be a good thing to make them think twice about doing it in the same way again,and I am not talking about mashing lol.It seems everyone does random ultras and reversals in the beginning.Hopefully your friend will see why he shouldn’t eventually.The only I can see convincing him to stop is when he fights enough people who punish him for it by stopping their strings short.

As a Ryu mainer myself, I can see where you’re coming from (My friend plays Dudley) but I did say to him that if you do Ultra enough, people will just block and you will get a big punish to which he responds, "Well the same would happen if I would have dp’d. However, he will admit that the punishment from, say a lp DP is no where near as bad as a punishment from an Ultra. But he still thinks that the risk is totally worth the reward.

The idea is, you should end up blocking enough of his blockstring/wake-up ultra for him to realize it’s not a viable strategy. There are occasions i random ultra though. Say, if i envision i’m going to get chipped out by an SRK i’ll throw it out on a prayer, doesn’t always work of course.

That said if you’re consistently dropping links in your combos it’s reasonable to assume he’s doing it to punish your** **mistakes, if he’s that obvious with it you shouldn’t really have a problem baiting it.

As for reversal/block string SRK’s, i think they are a relatively staple strategy within SFIV that is frowned upon as (skilless) which i disagree with random SRK’s can greatly relive pressure if you convince your opponent you like to throw that **** out alot.

Is he using Corkscrew Cross? Because that’s one of the best reversal Ultras I can think of. Can punish sweeps, catches moves like T. Hawk’s on recovery. If he used maybe Abel or Adon or Rufus it probably won’t work out so well, plus certain people, and certain characters especially benefit from it, end a blockstring early and block just to bait out a reversal. Maybe just try baiting the Ultra, and then you won’t have to worry as much about missed links/ blockstrings.

I’ll set aside the problem of your pressuring him with bad blockstrings or not punishing hard enough. I’ll assume you’re a lot better than he is.

You’re not the competition he needs currently.

I guess you’re so much above his level that he almost never wins. And when he does, it’s because he landed that random ultra.
He also needs a lower level of competition, where a safer gameplay fom his part will be adequately rewarded.

as ibuki reversal grab ultra is total pwn. everything that is -1 or more on hit/block gets punished SOOOOOOO hard. even punishes FADC from opponent.
but thats a grab, not normal ultra. tell him that he needs to learn how to block properly.

To answer some of your questions:

@Pokey86 He knows and I know that I rarely miss my combos with Ryu (not bragging or anything) so he knows that I have good excecution so he will literally MASH out an Ultra if i’m going for a BIG combo after a dizzy for example. So if I do miss the combo, then I get Ultra to the face. If not, he gets combo’d, too bad, he cant do anything about it, but if I stop then his Ultra gets blocked and I can punish with my Ultra. But then he does the excuse that “It was either DP or Ultra, and Ultra was the better option because see “reasons” above” Also, its not like EVERY TIME I do a combo, he does Ultra. Its just that everytime he wants to do a reversal, he always goes for Ultra.

@Snacks the sober sea lion He would use U2 for every matchup EXCEPT Ryu. Either way, he will still do Ultra as his reversal.

@kraal Well when we play Ryu-Dudley, yes 95% of the time, I am the victor. I still am teaching him though, its not like I just beat him over and over again for my satisfaction. I try and teach him all the fundementals such as footsies and antiairing. But the point of this thread is that he is in the mindset that Ultra is superior to DP when it comes to reversals with any character. But when you say “lower level of competition” do you mean like more ranked matches (same skill) or just trying to find people more his skill?

@Reen I do try and help him out as much as I can, like I said. So I do show him things in matches and I tell him to watch certain YT vids (VesperArcade comes to mind). So he’s working on it. But yes, like I said, he still thinks that Ultra > DP in reversals.

@All It seems that I worded the thread like everytime I try and do a combo, I miss it and I get Ultra’d in the face when this is rarely the case. The point of this thread is that my friend believes that an Ultra is a MUCH better reversal than a DP and I want to get him out of this mindset and if there was anything you could recommend. Thanks for the feedback guys!

just when u play with him drop your combos on purpose during move that leaves you in frame advantage, so when he is mashing ultra/dp you just block and just pwn his face.
repeat it 5-10 times,he’ll stop mashing at all.

Hard to teach somebody about reversals when Dudley’s are so awful though. EX Jet Upper is about all he has, and really you are better off with Ultra, seeing as how good Dudley’s can be.

What happened to block :(?

And throwing out your ultra removes one of your useful tools/large threat/psychological blah blah blah w/e you want to label it :), but I don’t think it really matters if it’s absolutely hopeless for him to make a comeback.

@Rean I do that most of the time but he wont be convinced that if you do an Ultra, IT WONT WORK!! Some people these days :confused:

@Snacks He plays other characters too but Dudley is his “main”. He plays Ryu (Uppercut vs U2), Cammy (Cannon Spike vs U1) and Sakura (Uppercut vs U1) But yet he STILL uses Ultra as a reversal even with characters such as Ryu and Cammy that have really good reversal DPs. But id he was going to reversal me without an Ultra with Dudle, it would be EX Jet Upper.

@Ex Nihilo He blocks most of the time but like I said, when he wants to reversal, its an Ultra. VERY good point on the removing a vital tool point, I’ll be sure to tell him that but I’m guessing he will say " Well if its the end of a round then I putting it to good use, right??"

Well the big difference between random ultra & random SRK is that your opponent has 3/4/5 frames after to press a button. the ultra-freeze is a big sign to stop doing whatever you’re doing & hold back

Explain to him the risk vs reward, mashing ultra might might work once…and if someone is doing the same thing over and over again answering disrespectful play with something just as disrespectful seems to fit

he can only wake up ultra 2x a round…and its very all or nothing…tell him to consider it like gambling money…would he gamble a ton of money on a huge risk?

One of the common arguments for the Japanese/oldschool to be faster players to adapt is because they play in arcades…Today…playing online…win or lose you are waiting the same amount of time for your next match…there is no penalty for the loss…so its easy to see it as “i guessed wrong” and keep doing the same thing…his goal should be to coax his opponent into errors…not hope they make errors…if he has any pride in his play he should see the difference between a true and a hollow victory
just stop mid combo and let his ultra whiff intentionally…

As a Sakura player, im more than familiar with even top players @CF:sad: and NL mashing during tatsu loops or anyother series of odd links…if you are in the same room and can hear the mashing…just stop the combo/string, block and bait it…

if he is getting away with this online…he should understand that its one match, and it doesnt really mean much…repeated success is more valuable than random success…

also point out that his wins by mashing ultra during a block string are due to execution errors on his opponents side…not necessarily skill or strategy on his end…

you could also switch styles, and completely turtle…it may frustrate him…but in that situation he no longer has the opportunity to mash ultra…it may take you longer to win w/o big complex combos…but it will remove from his game plan the thing he relies on so much forcing him to figure out other ways to get damage

I will say…random isnt necessarily a bad thing…especially with hyper aggressive characters in AE, you sometimes have to be willing to take that big risk and mash on through (the earlier in the match the better) to let them know you are willing to do it…

It’s bad because it holds you to an incompetence of your opponent that you’ll seldom see at higher levels. Besides which the startup time is usually not quick enough to hit a dropped link.

I’m totally going to start mashing vs you, but mash throw, so when you stop you get backthrown to Ultra.

You can use the properties of ultra freeze to your advantage in a situation like this. If you press a button on the same frame that an ultra activates, your move won’t come out. So, you can time your presses to come out at the same time or later as the opponent’s reversal ultra.

This way, if they do the ultra, you get to block. If they block, your attack comes out. This doesn’t require any reactions, it’s just a timing thing. If you got hit by the ultra, you pressed buttons too early.

This can give the impression that you’re pressing buttons all the time, so they might be tempted. However, safe offensive setups are best used against overall reversal happiness.

Ok, how about saying that in a situation like EVO if a player was about to lose they could either reversal DP or reversal Ultra. The difference here is that if they use the dp they can be safe afterwards, they do the ultra and it doesn’t connect, which it most likely won’t, their chance at the money is gone! You friend is acting as if there is no way he can win. There is always a chance to make a comeback!

Playing people of his skill level in your offline sessions is always better, with other people commenting an so on. Online is ok also.
Playing superior opponents sure teaches a lot, but playing inferior opponents teaches you how to push your advantage and win convincingly (not in a clutch, desperate way).

You want him to stop mashing reversal/ultra?

Have him play Fuerte or someone with ultras and reversals that really shouldn’t be mashed (Hi Rose)