Roll Cancel is Useless?


#1

This is a post of vKuwabara, one friend of mine talking bout another Friend.

I want to ask everyone in this forum, What u think about Azis, my friend who says RollCancel is Useless, can u guys please give ur opinion?


#2

I didnt know you would post here. In fact we need to prove that RC IS necessary (in roll grooves, obviously =D) and our friend DOES NOT consider RC even a useful tactic. The worse is: I can’t beat his crazy-jump-throw Vega =(


#3

RC is incrediably useful. Namely because there ARE billions of times when you can RC to counter attack an opponent but you could not have just rolled through, then attacked. Easy example is Rock RC Elbow through any fireball. Assuming we’re talking about intelligent players here; Rock cannot Roll safely through fireballs on reaction. His roll basically just puts him next to the opponent saying “hit me, im stuck in an animation without unvincibility frames!” RC Hard edge on reaction however, is quite viable, and is not only safe, but will also earn you a knockdown.

There are many more advanced uses, but this is an extremly easy to understand one.


#4

go to training mode and pick either honda, bison or blanka.

learn how to rc their torpedo attacks and dont leave training training mode until you learn how to do it, especially from a crouching position.

crazy-jump-throw vega problem solved


#5

Apparently, that guy doesn’t even know what RC is.


#6

or maybe you could just do s.fp with Honda or cr.fierce with Guile.

Anyway, RC is good but not necessary unless you’re playing in a high level (but from the looks of it, it doesn’t seem so). Just because a C Ken doesn’t use RC funky kick all the time doesn’t mean he can’t win: there’s the original way to play the game without RCs. RCs are just like a shortcut that’s really good but can lead you to a terrible path if you abuse it.


#7

If you roll when the other guy is doing low short or blocking, you are gonna get killed. If you RC when the other guy is doing low short or blocking, you either hit him or you’re safe. See the difference?


#8

and those 2 moves beat vega’s jump in clean?


#9

no, ken really needs that rc kick, he has too many problemse without it


#10

I played against hundreds of Blankas and Hondas who RC almost everything. RC is an incredibily powerful too. I was like your friend once who thought that I could go through arcades with just roll and throw, but RC eats me for breakfast, lunch and dinner, so I picked up RC for my Iori and it improved his gameplay by a freakin bunch.

Meh, practice RC and show your friend that he’s wrong. It’s so much better to “roll and throw” most of the time. As for jump throw vega, well as Ouroborus had said, picking Bison/Blanka/Honda and RC their charging attacks works but it really depends on who you use. RC opens many doors to your offensive play. I’ve learnt it the hard way lol :stuck_out_tongue:


#11

also opens many doors to your defensive play


#12

id love to see you do either of those moves on reaction and beat lowjump vega clean


#13

Well, there are certain moves that are useless to rc, yes. Reflectors aren’t very useful to rc. But any special move that allows the character to move full screen quickly is very usefull because it not only pierces right through fb’s but also in cases makes aa much easier due to the invulnerability. Come to think of it, stationary fb’s are the greatest aa rc. In other words, people have to approach you much more carefully.


#14

That’s way too broad a generalization. You must be thinking of Guile’s RC boom. The only other useful RC projectile in the game to use as anti-air I can think of is Geese’s Double Reppuken.

If somebody uses RC Hadouken or something as the greatest anti-air, then I’m just going to laugh at them because not only did they just do 700 damage instead of the 2000 damage you get from an unairblockable DP, but if I landed in time to block, I get to hit them with a free combo as well since a projectile at point blank range (even when RC’d), still has very long and very punishable recovery.


#15

Well, Im Azis from Brazil as Shin and Kuwabara, it is from me that they were talking about, hello everybody, Ill try to be short and clean everytime.

As you can see, the question and topic name was made to destroy me, because they cant destroy me in game, the last results is Azis 10 x 0 Kuwabara and Azis 10 x 2 Shin. A Humiliation, even with they using lots of roll cancel.

My Vega (Claw, this will be a default), is not a jumping-crazy and throw. It is the best Vega I ever saw in videos, of course Ill not send my videos to you, my techniques will remain hide unless I go to an EVO someday. Imagine a Vega like a Sentinel, controling the air and the ground spaces as it was the owner of the game, and it is, wich abuses the speed and control every move you make, waiting your reaction, you are never safe, no pocking, no air attack, and with a very good defense, abusing also from the C groove air guard. Thats me. Im proud of it, that is true. :encore:

about the useless: I was saying about me, for my characters (most of time Vega, Sagat, Blanka) RC is almost useless because I play a different style, wich make me able to have time to punish you with greater damages. By the way, I know how to perform a RC and I can use it sometimes.

Lets do it:
I consider roll cancel as a tactical counter-attack (thats why I classify it like a defense techinique, just definitions) when you dont have time to roll and attack, the friends said sometime of a Kuwabaras Shinkuu-Hadouken in Shin before his wakeup that should kill him in the guard.

Lets analise the situation: Shin made a RC Hadouken, just a small damage. If it was a Shinkuu Hadouken, you could Simply roll through and Punish him, because you HAVE this time. Why the RC was possible? Because HE HAD TIME to perform a roll. RC is not possible if you cant roll ( it would be not a roll cancel if therre was no roll to cancel, You must cancel the roll in the first 2 or 3 frames to perform the roll cancel, if you dont, the move you not achieve the invencibility frames). So, if Kuwabara made a Shinkuu-Hadouken a little before, Shin would be dead.

What is the point:
Characters with torpedos are the MOST used as roll cancel attacking techniques. Why are they good? Because they pass through all the sreen very fast, and pass trough fireballs and others because they stil have the invencibility frames that they achieved. It is great if your opponent uses distant fireballs, what i think it is not a godd technique, because with a 3/4 screen of distance from the opponent, what is a fireball? Something to you jump (unless it is sonic boom)!
Other characters, like Ken and Hibiki (no torpedos) can RC like defense techiniques, specially after combos finished with projectiles like c.mk->Hadouken or the c.hk->Kachou-sen, when you cant roll and attack.

So, RC techniques must be used carefully, most of people use it only against fireballs, that is very easy to do, but I dont have fireballs, so you must think in another way to get me with a RC. It is like parry, everybody can parry a hadouken, not everybody can parry a Chun-lis Special.
You must think in bigger damages, not only a simple Hadouken (wich mantain the character on his feet and you cant do more pressure later) or Shoryuken, so, you must SEE the game, READ the mind, if the carachter will throw a hadouken or a Sonic boom, THIS is the time to approach a little before, then superjump on it, even for guile, because this time when he throws the sonic boom he dont have the Flash kick and you get him comencing the jump or in the ground throwing the sonic boom, if you wait more, he will throw a anti-air punch s.mp or c.hp. In other characters that arent Guile, you can punish them after your air attack, with much mre damage than torpedos attacks.

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NOTE
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About the torpedos and roll cancel hint for my Vega: Of course ill not just jump on my opponent, specially if he is charging his torped move, Im not a dumb, and it is not only for torpedos characters, but for everybody, a Zangief with a bar could punish me with his anti-air special, or a Simple Tiger uppercut, Shoryuken, Sagat s.HK, this moves could solve the problem, no need for a RC. But, pay attention, Ill not jump on you if you are waiting for me to do it, im not a dumb, MIND GAME, pressure and variations are the WORDS. Got it? :wink:
Dont you thought it would be that easy, with just RC torpedos, did you? :rolleyes:
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#16

what?


#17

About the Vega small jump, i think it is better to guard and wait for the next attack. Do not let your guard gauge almost in the end!

There is no clean way out (I dont believe anybody is this quick to counter his attack unlesse you were waiting for this small jump).

After 2 small jumps, you can be safe to do other things because of the distance, that will be bigger and he cant do other small jump, you can wait for his attack then (usually a normal jump or a superjump in the back), trade a c.lk to make the distance bigger… you can jump on him if he wait for your reaction (dont superjump, he will pass under), but, he will be probably waiting for it and will air-throw you or jump back or roll. Wich character do you play?


About he Hondas stand s.FP(HP) and Guiles c.F(HP) or even s.SP(MP), no way to be clean, you will be hit or trade hits.

Why would a Vega jump over a Honda waiting to do a s.HP? I cant say… Angry? Hurry? Dont attack to much, people think it is very easy to beat Vega, they just say: “RC torpedos or s.HP/c.HP and he is dead…”

Poor of them if they think it is that easy…


#18

oh, so you’re here! I’ll answer some of your 'questions’
1- this topic was not made to destroy you. It’s made to open your eyes and for you to quit being stupid sometimes

2- there were MANY examples of moves that you CAN’T just roll through and punish (Rock RC elbow vs fireballs)

3- do you even know that characters has different rolls? I mean, they aren’t all the same speed/recovery

I DOUBT!!! you don’t RC

strange, here you talk big. You never said it was useless because of your style
greater damages? you just roll and throw to punish.

just tell then that our matches were in PS2 and I had to play in a very strange stick, with 2cm distance between the buttons…who can RC with that??
my K-groove really sux, that’s all I used against him


#19

PS: just an observation of Azis, he sayd clearly(in portuguese ) :
“If u think that the millions of people that post in Shoryuken.com r that good, keep dreaming, anyway everybody, even ppl like u post there. Lots of then dont know how to perform roll cancel but post, other r like combo makers(he cited Obot64) that play cool, make the bugs and KIms infinites that r a lot more dificult then a lot of roll cancel, but he keps loosing…”


#20

[quote]

even with they using lots of roll cancel.

[quote]

Correction, even WE missing a lot of roll cancel, even u could see… EVEN u…

http://www.zachd.com/mvc2/mwc/Manue...0Justin%20W.mpg
in that movie just see the performance of Justing wong, take all the combos, take all the roll cancel and al the thinked mind game, Thats Azis!

there lies here… he said EVERY roll cancel can be only used on defense, of all chars… and if not, thy r useless…
And he cannot do roll cancel as he says, never used in a reall game, I doubt that he can even in training mode… but se insist that roll cancel is useless… evenlike that…

u always talked that counter-atack and defence were diferent things, why u changed now?

I will let a bether player answer that to u, it will hurt more…

… I think thats a good way to say that u dont know a thing bout roll cancel…

he didnt realised that almost 90% of the air atacks that I countered, when using Ken, where in RC hcf+lk, he cant even see that… he thinks that that move have some king on invulnerability…

u talk as u were capable of…

Whith Ken I aways rayed taht u makea dump jump to me cut with RC… well… worked a lot…

U know, he talks all big saying that he wins and all, I started to play that game seriosly(that I dont like) about a month… or two… he plays like 3 year… dont know, and I still miss roll cancel(either way, i Think Im starting at the right spot to be a good player). but I think its natural isnt? to miss that stuff at start, and easilly punished, but even like that he says his tecnic r the best(he even sayd right know that his vega is the best of the world… belive me… not even close) so Im taking my time to kick his ass, simple!

I just sign in what vkuwabara says, he started just a bit more time ago then me, but my arcade isnt very good made, the buttons r not very well calculated(have to make again) so vkuwabara was forced to play in my control, cause in PS2 control he wouldnt make anything at all… anyway, in my control he lost a lot of roll cancel capabilyty… nd had to play Kgrove… with… i have to say… he suck… but at A-Groove he is really good, lot bether then me to perform roll cancel, and Azis didnt saw that and say that his tecnicque r poor… what to say to someone with a limited vision?