Rose Is Ass

rose

#1

Sort of. The content of the OP is copied over from something I posted in the Newbie Saikyo Dojo in reply to a player wanting to learn Rose. Its a fairly objective (in my subjective opinion) overview of her weaknesses and strengths. Just wanted to get the opinions of the rest of the Rose community. Feel free to just read the summary as most of the points I mentioned in the overview should be familiar to Rose mains.

Overview

[details=Spoiler]As a Rose main myself, believe me when I say she is one of the most unforgiving and demanding characters to learn and play, up there with Dhalsim. Don’t expect to win without developing consistent execution, solid fundamentals and extensive matchup knowledge. Do expect to lose frequently when trying to get to that level.

As for why she’s a tough character to play at a high level…

Firstly there’s the execution barrier. Her main bread 'n butter hitconfirm (cr. LP -> cr. LK -> cr. MP xx Spiral) requires a 1-frame link. Same with her main frame-trap combos (cl. MK -> cr. LP xx LK Spiral and cl. MP -> cr. MP) as well as her “practical” high damage punishes (cr. HP xx LP/MP Spark FADC cr. HP xx Spiral).

Secondly, she has incredibly low damage output. She cannot punish for more than 210 damage meterless (the aforementioned cl. MP -> cr. MP xx MK/EX Spiral). Her standard punish (cr. MP xx MK Spiral) does a measly 160. In certain situations or against certain characters, she also needs to spend meter on EX Spiral in order to complete the combo.

The first two points coupled together already make for some serious problems. If you drop your links, not only will you lose out on the measly damage she deals but you’ll also eat a combo yourself. Usually the consequence for dropping a link is simply missing out on damage but in Rose’s case, you’re going to be receiving it as well.

Thirdly, Rose’s offense is based almost exclusively on her frame-trap/throw mixup. This requires you to be in your opponent’s face and subject to considerable risk. Both frame-traps and throws are vulnerable to invincible reversals. The risk-reward ratio for Rose is usually skewed to her disadvantage, even when she is the one on the offense.

Fourthly, Rose has little, if no, comeback factor at all. Her U1 is usually a situational anti-fireball punish and requires 3 bar to combo in to. Her U2 is essentially a poor gypsy woman’s version of Dhalsim U1. It gives her breathing room and a mixup oppurtunity, but she can be hit (instead of thrown) out of it. It does pathetic damage on its own and usually just ends up chipping.

Finally, Rose has extremely limited wakeup options. EX Soul Throw and EX Spiral can be used as situational escapes but are both highly punishable. EX Spiral will beat out certain slow-starting normal but starts up too slowly itself and also doesn’t have much invincibility meaning fast chainable normals (Balrog’s cr. LP) or normal with lots of active frames (Makoto’s st. MP) will flat out beat it. Her below-average stamina (950) doesn’t help her ability to take hits either. Most of the characters she can successfully keep out for the most part will absolutely destroy her once they get in. This leads to some of her supposedly favorable matchups being quite different in practice as opposed to in theory.

All that being said, Rose does have some redeeming strengths.

She has great mobility. She has a slide which can be used to avoid and even stuff fireballs at ranges or to evade air attacks. She has the best backdash in the game (on par with Chun Li’s).

Her frame-trap/throw mixup, despite the earlier criticisms, can be quite effective. Her cl. MK is airborne meaning it will beat stand-tech and all throw attempts. cr. LK, cl. MP, and HP/EX Spark are also great frame trap tools. Rose also has the best normal throw range in the game up there with Claw and Chun.

Her pokes are excellent. st. MK, st. HK, cr. HK are quite fast and long-reaching, making them good for whiff-punishing and keeping the opponent at bay. cr. MP xx MK Spiral is incredible for pressure when spaced perfectly.

She has a variety of decent AA moves. As mentioned earlier, slide can be used to go under certain jump-ins which allows you to throw them afterwards. Same goes for Rose’s cr. MK. A late or preemptive Soul Throw does good damage (160) and nets a hard knockdown which opens up mixup opportunities. Finally, she has her 5 frame cr. HP which will beat most jump-ins when timed properly.

Rose also has the best set of anti-fireball and anti-shoto tools. st. MK and st. HK can punish shoto cr. MKs very effectively. Her reflects shut down their fireball game and forces them to go on the offensive.[/details]

So, thoughts?


#2

Right on the money. I have always considered Rose’s hard-to-do, weak-hitting and risky bnb’s as hert weakest asset. You will mis at some point and get punished for it, which adds to the tension and makes you miss even more in tight situations. Together with one of the worst reversals this is trouble.
At mid-level however, she can be quite effective due to her easier poking game, throwing game and her great backdash. If opponents cannot punish backdashes correctly, you will get out of most trouble except corners.

Also nice additions that you say ‘non-gimmick’ character. She is one of the few that has almost none. I learned fighting games by playing SF4 Rose, so I’m inclined to say that that asset made me solid with half the cast, just using normals as they come and not relying on any advanced setups and mixups.
She makes you look at fundamentals as the core part of any character. If you can play Rose you can fight decent fights with characters like Vega, Chun, Bison and many others as well.

And yes, matchup knowledge is required.

Rose makes great players, but not winners :slight_smile:


#3

agree on everything. To win with rose requires a lot of experience in SF4, i.e footsies, frame trap, execution, whiff punishing. Its the player that make Rose.


#4

No thoughts. Summed up pretty well. She can compete. She’s just not auto pilot. There are some characters in this game that are just retarded in the tools they have and how they can be abused. Rose is not even close to being one of them.


#5

She’s very very very good to use at a beginner/mid level. Once you fight against players who know when to throw fireballs or start punishing slides, all your tricks don’t work anymore and its all up to how solid your ground game can be.

Honestly, Rose is a gimmick character against players who don’t know the matchup.


#6

How can she be a gimmick character if she doesnt have gimmicks? Timing your normals and tightening your offense is a tool almost everyone has


#7

Isn’t there some story about Daigo losing to a Rose (maybe Luffy) before he looked up the frame data?


#8

Was way back in Vanilla. Some big tournament in Europe where Daigo lost to Louffy in grand finals.

Now note that Rose was a console only character back then. So Daigo didn’t really know anything about her.


#9

Hit on the point Rose definitely fits all points.

but I firmly disagree. I think it’s a great general understanding of the game that makes Rose.

A player makes execution players such as Viper and such.

Rose is fairly basic and requires generally solid fundamentals to win with. She’s definitely not hard to play, but she’s just lacking in MANY areas.


#10

Expected a troll post and actually got a coherent statement on why Rose is a difficult character. I think you need to really like this character before you think about playing her properly


#11

It’s a shame that people are going to read that and still think she’s a cheap, bullshit character that can slide and cr.mp xx mk spiral all day to win.

She’s not ass, though. She has a hard time, but she’s not as bad as everyone (Rose players AND non-Rose players) make her out to be.


#12

In comparison to A LOT of characters that have retardedly safe pressure options and stupid 50/50 mixups, she’s ass. Doesnt mean players cant win with her. The margin of error is just much much slimmer with her than those characters.


#13

Saw a video from mr. overheadgred that had rose fighting a honda…

from that video I have a question!

as a NON rose player i’ve always felt that her Ultra 1 being a fantastic anti air? was an ultra worth using ALOT. For the past year or so… Ultra 2 has become the standard…

As mentioned in the overview… Her ultra 2 can be though of as a ghetto yoga catastrophe… her mix ups off it are only throws… she can be hit… and more often than not it ends up just doing chip…

so my question is… why the huge neglect of her ultra 1 so much? It’s a respectable ultra for sure and in light of Ultra 2’s flaws, it’s a wonder why it isn’t used more often :frowning:


#14

U1 isn’t a good ultra: Slow startup / can be canceled from it (literally be hit even though you are suppose to be hit by the scarf) and the opportunity to land it is quite slim or match up dependant. It’s not completely invincible meaning she can still be hit by fireballs. The ultra is more of a “I punish this” than an actual ultra to combo with.

With U2 you have more chances to mix things with your opponent / make the opponent respect your space and combo with it.


#15

I like Ultra 1, but I’ve grown BORED of it.

I’m an Ultra 1 advocate, but U2 has some fun shit that mindfucks the opponent.

Doesn’t mean the ultra is good though (both are crap).


#16

vanilla - U1: when players were less experienced this ultra was viable, lots of players did not know they could block it, they jumped in on it, thet whiffed large reversals, they did not alter trajectories, they fireballed on wakeup etc. I could land it a lot because players were not that good, and did not know Rose that well

super - U2: although she got nerfed overall, this was such a huge change that it made her actually good. Recently somebody challenged me to a non-AE match Rose vs Gouken, because he did not know the AE version of Gouken. It was a slaughterfest, even if I failed to keep my zoning, I could just U2 and try it again. What an option, get knocked down and wake-up safely while making the opponent run away from you.

AE - U1/U2: I dropped U2 immediately because it has no reversal properties anymore, and as a combo tool it got worse too. The funny thing is that U1 is still as slow and predictable, but now the damage is better due to relative lower outputs overall. And combo-ing becomes an option since most Rose players are used to tight links.
However, I’m just starting to learn how to use U2 differently: as a mix-up option on wakeup. After a backthrow or a forward throw you can do simple setups that either hit in front or behind. I’m thinking this is what my Rose really needs now, and getting a throw with her should be an aim anyway as throw/trap mixup is her only other offensive strategy.

AE2012 - U2: I’ll be at a point that I will land the U2 mixups without thought, and when it becomes a bit more easy to combo into again it should be a good option overall.

It depends on the skill levels you face though.


#17

To me picking Ultras is a question of utility. U1 is a very damaging AA but Rose has more reliable and less risky AA options. She also has ways of neutralizing fireballs without it. U2 gives Rose something she doesn’t normally have, which is the ability to mix up the opponent relatively safely.

Of course, certain matchup nuances also factor into choosing which Ultra to use. To give an example, I prefer to use U1 in the T. Hawk matchup because though Rose can punish all unsafe Condor Dives with Soul Pied, it is a far more damaging option. It’s also very useful psychologically; if T. Hawk knows Rose can reversal punish his Condor Dive or reaction punish Condor Spire, he will be less inclined to throw them out and commit to a ground game, which Rose wins.


#18

i use u1 vs yun/yang/divekick

seriously.


#19

I use u2 for the twins. Dive kicks are bit too fast for a slow ass ultra like U1


#20

yeah I prefer using U2 vs twins too.
I get too much pressured by them
I hate their crossup dive kicks
I hate yun’s MP
I hate guessing if they will grab / frame trap / ex command grab me
I hate being frame trapped by yang’s cl.mk that goes into U2
I hate [something that has to do with the twins here]

U2 takes care of all that.