S.I.N. Battle Suit Training. UMVC3 Viper Pressure/Spacing

c-viper

#1

Alright so since this was asked for and I pretty much could use a thread like this for myself to help understand her mid to far range game and close pressure, I decided to make this.

I guess I’m still in the works of learning everything myself but I know her basics revolve around a good bit of the stuff that’s in the tech thread. Overall though I’d like a more general thread that can get first page updated regularly with stuff about her game at different ranges.

I’ll just kinda link stuff from the tech thread for now and whatever else people feel like adding they can also do.

- Gotnoskill’s info on Rapid Seismos, Burn Kick Feints, Thunder Knuckle Feints, Seismo Feints (seismo feints needs some actual info) and Viper Ball.

**- Bob “Chrisis” Ross’ info on general pressure and spacing with Viper’s tools. Details about **Seismo, optic blast, air dash, wave/plink dash, and double jump/Burn Kick Feint
http://forums.shoryuken.com/t/working-overtime-the-c-viper-technical-thread/125670page-2#post-6252284

Stuff I want to get into eventually…

- Footsies with her L and M thunder knuckles. These absorb all low durability projectiles and I feel generally could use more discussion about in her neutral game. I’m sure the hit boxes on these moves are solid and seem to be underutilized in her spacing.

- Improving Viper’s normal footsie game with assists.

**- Air or ground Burn Kick footsies. **Can you confirm off of this into combos?

- Seismo Feints to cancel start up or recovery of normals.

- Ideal hit confirms off landing an L, M or EX seismo.

**- Air to air hit confirms into combos. **

- Comboing after a ground or air throw

- Fuzzy guard set ups

- Utilization of different high tier assists for her overall pressure/spacing and combo extension.

- Dealing with start of round bullshit vs. other characters and their assists.


How to begin learning Viper?
Spy by Day MILF by Night: The C. Viper Thread
Spy by Day MILF by Night: The C. Viper Thread
#2

Offensive Techniques


#3

Defensive/Spacing Techniques


#4

Misc. Techniques


#5

I’ll work on seismo feints at some point DJ. I still haven’t found any application to these yet except to stop yourself from getting punished by a very select few supers.

Footsies with her L and M thunder knuckles.

The hit boxes on these moves are great for ground to ground attacks. The Medium version acts like a better version Yun’s dash punch from AE. It gains a lot of ground, is very safe on block (if feinted on hit/block), and can be used to escape a situation where you use a cr.M or some poke that whiffs and might be punished. Ground to air situations this move shouldn’t be a goto for AA. It isn’t the most reliable, but can catch those trying to jump back and escape. I use it on Wesker’s who jump back gun shot if my positioning is right. The light version I believe has faster start-up, is a more reliable AA of the two versions because she crouches, but still can be blown up. The only time I use this version is for smaller characters like V. Joe, Arthur, RR and Ammy.

Using these two as projectile nullifiers I’ve only found are useful in one situation. I use the M and L versions as a hit-confirm on projectile nullifying to proceed into an EX.TK. If someone is laming hard from the ground and you need assurance that you will hit them with an EX.TK rather than just throwing it out there and hoping, use your L and medium versions of thunderknuckle. Once you find that you nullified the opponents projectile they are in a state that leaves them exceptionally vulnerable to another move. In this case it is EX. Thunder knuckle. In a lot of cases an opponent is throwing a projectile out just to get an assist out on the field safely so that they may setup an offense. If you successfully nullify said projectile you will get the point and assist character in most cases.

Improving Viper’s normal footsie game with assists:

Viper’s Footsie game is generally ass. If you whiff a normal or thunderknuckle you can get punished hard. Her dash is average at best and is mediocre in using it to kara into a normal. Her best normals for footsies is her cr.M. Her first hit of launcher does extend further than cr.M but must be immediately canceled into a special move if you want to convert into a combo. The only reason I believe cr.M is better than first hit of launcher is that the block stun is significantly less on cr.M and can allow you to go for frame traps. First hit of launcher will be immediately advance guarded even by the slowest of those who advance guard. Back to the subject though…

I only know of one very reliable and safe way to use her M.Thunderknuckle and convert into a combo (even if they are airborn) and that is with a projectile assist. You can use a wide variety of projectile assists to convert, but those most popularly used is Doom’s Plasma. In vanilla it was Magneto’s Disruptor Beam, but I believe (correct me if im wrong) its harder to convert into a combo because it is no longer a soft knockdown. If your setup is blocked you generally will have advantage to continue for one mixup depending on projectile assist being used.

**Air or Ground Burn Kick footsies:**I’m still working on this and I will try and dig deeper into an explenation of what I’ve found later, but I can tell you how to confirm into a combo.

for grounded Burnkicks it goes as so: Use your Heavy Burnkick. It is the slowest, but when if it hits you are at a great advantage to use a st.L or first hit of launcher to confirm. Personally I use Heavy thunderknuckle as the following move to confirm. It isn’t the safest but it is very reliable for me. If you have the timing down you can actually feint your Heavy thunderknuckle on the first active frame before you leave the ground. So just in case they advance guard your BK (which doesn’t happen often) you will be safe.
For air to ground Burning kicks all of your burning kick strengths in the air are reliable IF YOU SUPERJUMP AND TIGERKNEE THEM!

Superjump Light BK: This one has the longest startup but definitely does not need an assist to confirm into a combo. I use st.M to confirm in most cases and sometimes cr.M if they are almost out of range.

Superjump Medium BK: This one I don’t use as much but is a middle ground for both light and heavy strengths. If superjumped and Tigerkneed immediately off the ground you can convert into a combo without assist, but you definitely want to use an assist with this one.

Superjump Heavy BK: This is the fastest one obviously (17 frame startup) and this is the one I use the most. Again you can combo off of this one without an assist if you immediately SJ off the ground and tigerknee your input. Not recommended. Use an assist to confirm. I use Taskmasters horizontal arrows, because it is not too slow or fast. The startup for them is around in the average range and this works perfectly for Medium and heavy BK’s. So anything within Taskmaster’s horizontal projectile startup range will work. Ironman’s unibeam works and also Arthur’s dagger tosses.
For Air to Air hit confirms off of a Superjump tigerkneed BK you can actually convert off of all of them by yourself without the use of assist. I still use assists just incase they dont jump. But my confirm off of this one is a st.M

Seismo Feints to cancel startup of recovery of normals:

I wouldn’t recommend using seismo feints to recover. The recovery is way too long on them. If you want to recover from a whiffed move then definitely use heavy.TK/feint. This one has about 4 frame or 5 frame disadvantage compared to seismo feints which I think are probably nearly double that.

I’ll continue adding info to your questions later on my findings. If you guys disagree for whatever reason please discuss or add something I missed.


#6

Well the next thing I wanna talk about for sure is dealing with start of round stuff vs. characters like Zero or Wolverine. Playing against my brother’s Zero I feel this like huge urge to just like knee jerk pick up Akuma just to deal with start of round vs. Zero. It’s just too easy for Zero to just mash buttons at the start and then take up to the sky and act like an idiot. If he builds 2 meters I have to deal with sogenmu into run forward for free into dead Viper. I know if I do pick Akuma I can randomly burn through projectiles which is part of the problem but Zero can always just lightning or mash s.H on Akuma and Akuma is getting fucked up too. Ideally I wanna get to a point where I can get within mid range and use seismo and missile to control space and then move in during the missiles.

This is good stuff. I guess the thing is in UMVC3 there’s just too many retardo hit boxes for thunder knuckle to be as effective as it was in SFIV. When Zero’s mashing shit all over the place your chances of getting a thunder knuckle to get rid of a projectile or generally use in a footsie is just going to be more limited.

Pushblocking also probably makes seismo feints less useful than they would be in SFIV but there’s probably some random stuff I can put together once I get in.


#7

- Ideal hit confirms off landing an L, M or EX seismo.

Here is something that you rarely see but can be done. This is a part of her game that you must condition yourself to see and react to. It is very hard to confirm off of a seismo safely.

Here are some ways you can do it though.

L. Seismo: from ground to ground or ground to air you can combo by Super jumping forward and immediately doing a heavy kick and then proceed into the stair kick loop. This is my goto hit confirm because it is largely safe and if they block it you fly up into the air. You can then feint and dash where ever you’d like safely. There is a variation to this if you want a semi hit-confirm and that is off of a seismo FADC. Once you dash out of your seismo you will know if they have been hit or not and you can SJ and link into a j.H before the opponent flips out. I’ve used this a few times, but I’m starting to use it more just because it doesn’t hurt to practice it and is actually applicable. Nobody ever realises I do it because the times I do it its off of an AA seismo and you only see the opponent in the air (Did it a couple times in my last casual session at UFO). You can also try a box dash hit confirm, but you’re setting yourself up to be thrown if your seismo is blocked. Another thing you can do is L seismo and hit confirm into a SJ forward heavy Burn kick. You will be able to connect a st.M by yourself to continue the combo. I advise against this though because if its blocked most opponents initial reaction is to jump immediately after and you could get chicken blocked hard by accident.

M.Seismo: This one is a bit harder to hit confirm off of. Your only answers to this out of a corner is Box dash j.H and an air Burning kick. Reasons shown above show why these hit confirms are unsafe. M.Seismo in the corner you can FADC into a L.seismo into another FADC into stair kick loop. I have done this once in a match. It’s practical, but you don’t get the opportunity much to do this.

Ex Seismo: There are two hit confirms I use here. If they are grounded and get hit by an EX. Seismo I do a box dash hit confirm. If they’re in the air I go into a stair kick loop.

- Air to air hit confirms into combos.

The only air to air hit confirm I use is a j.H into a L.BK/feint j.H. This sets up a the stair kick loop and is actually my OS if my throw is out of range. Your only other option here is to waste a meter and go into an EX.BK. I haven’t tested this much just for the fact that I hate using meter and I know that I can do the stair kick loop consistently enough.

- Fuzzy guard set ups

Will be making a mix-up video with a couple Fuzzy guard setups soon. Really don’t feel like explaining right now.

[media=youtube]go8nqtkulVw[/media]

For the first 30 seconds of the video it shows my old setup in vanilla for fuzzy guards. I’ve got a variation of it for my new assists and for other assists.

- Utilization of different high tier assists for her overall pressure/spacing and combo extension.

Discussion for another day.

I personally don’t have problems with start of the round BS. I’m more of the one to back off and allow myself to breathe, but sometimes you don’t get that opportunity with wolverine’s walk speed.

For dealing with Wolverine and Zero if your opponent has the same old BS where they walk forward and want to throw you I actually look to throw them too. If there is a tech I immediately buffer in an EX. Seismo. Especially if they’re the type to try and pull out their assist at the start of the round. In other words happy birthday 2 seconds into the round. The only bad thing here is if they block then you are out of meter. Generally what I do against Wolverine is jump backwards and try and gain space away from him. Once the round starts your options are very limited. So I don’t see it a big problem to give up space just so you can super jump away at the start of the round and reset your situation. I’ve noticed something that is pretty effective is just going for a ground throw. Most Wolverine’s expect you to jump away so pretend like you might and go for the ground throw. If they jump forward they will be met by a st.H counter and you will be able to combo. If the wolverine isn’t completely up in your grill I will actually do a Superjump tigerknee Burning kick with taskmaster assist. Keeps you safe and allows for you to try for the first hit.

For Zero I like to be up in his grill. So I will walk forward and try and get an airthrow or hit them immediately. The Viper/Zero match-up is fucking awful for Viper. I will also sometimes do the Superjump tiger knee burning kick setup with task assist. Your Zero will usually take to the air. And if you can ground them even for a moment it gives you a chance. Some Zero’s will actually dash at the start of the round and you will have them right where you want them with that burning kick setup.


#8

Yeah Zero’s walk speed is just slow enough I noticed where I can move backwards from him start of the round, call Doom missiles and immediately after do a L or M seismo and rapid seismo or seismo jump cancel forward in and start pressure. Once I get a rhythm going with that I’m usually good but it requires space. I’ll have to try just going for the button press start of round with c.L (since only his c.L is 4 frame start up) and block string into Vergil assist to see if that gives me the space I need to get going with the missiles.

For somebody touted to be the best character in the game…yeah it’s looking like Zero can just press buttons whenever he wants at C.Viper especially during start of round situations. Seismo placement feels imperative just to even kinda crack him a bit while he can just chuck little fireballs all day that start up and release faster than your seismos. Can’t laser him either because every ground special he has ducks under the laser. It’s like fighting a gnat with a huge light saber and a laser gun. If I had one durp normal that was +11 on block that I could throw around all day like X-23 I’d feel more comfortable but I’m really feeling like a fish out of water right now having to rely completely on special moves and assists to fight Zero. Just not used to it coming from 23.


#9

Can;t you OS against the start of match crap with H TK?


#10

What do you do if they block the H TK or it whiffs?


#11

You’re going to feint it out on hit or block or wiff.


#12

I can’t believe I never thought of this… good stuff!


#13

Yeah…I’m really down in the dumps about using a character that’s like all special moves. I’m too used to having that mash normal to go to to win the match.

I’ll definitely put in some of the stuff I’m learning here and see where it goes. H TK being projectile invincible would help against Zero buster stuff at the very least.


#14

Probably common knowledge, but when you feel a beam assist to teleport coming on, focus attack to see which side they are going to appear and nullify the mix-up and punish accordingly.


#15

That’s something I wanted to talk about also. Now I know focus attack into EX seismo is pretty go to (if you’re feeling good and wanna spend the meter). This is probably one of the problems I’ve been having in the neutral game because I’ve had situations where I want to run EX seismo but forget to hold on focus attack first and end up getting hit while I’m inputting the motion for the seismo. It definitely seems like charging up focus is ideal before releasing EX seismo because otherwise you will get hit by MVC3 shit while you’re inputting the motion.

What are the best punishes you go for in those situations? EX seismo is obviously go to but I hate having to spend a meter all the time just for a punish. If you hit and have a long enough combo with assist extension you’ll probably kill but if you miss/get blocked meter gone and I really don’t like 0 meter Viper yet cuz mine is ass. LOL. I know somebody like Marlin Pie could burn 2 EX seismos and still find ways to win but I haven’t optimized my Viper yet enough I guess. Then again Marlin Pie is the same guy who has no problem burning XF1 to kill a character also.

Is there enough time during a port+assist mix up to use a regular seismo as a punish or other special move?

Long story short = please give me more stuffs to convince me not to give Viper a secondary footsie (Akuma assist).


#16

I’ll usually just burn the meter… But if you don’t have the meter or wanna use it, I guess if they are close enough you can do a O.S H. TK and cancel it on hit into full combo, down side is obviously not canceling it fast enough and getting punished. You can also dash and jump back to block out a focus if you wanna just ger away from the mix-up but there is a chance you can still get caught in a combo.

I would never recommend doing a point blank L. Seismo out the focus attack as a punish though, too risky to get hit with any attack on start-up


#17

Depending on the character and situation many times you can also do:

WaveDash 5A
WaveDash Throw
M TK~S(hit)
H TK~S(hit)
EX TK


#18

If there are teleports without assist cr.M is a good go to counter footsie. If they use assists I simply super jump out and re-assess the situation. Either that Or I don’t mind using an Ex.TK to hit them, get hit by said projectile from the back, recover and combo. A good way not to waste meter and I did it a couple times in my last two or three UFO streams is go for a focus attack and once you get hit confirm into a 3-frame heavy Thunderknuckle feint. This doesn’t work on Zero very well because of his multi-hitting normals, but it works wonders on those with one hit normals. Especially on those who like to start hitting you from the air (Wolverine’s Divekick or Wesker BS). This is a technique I am trying to abuse more just because its so good. This tactic is null and void for Morrigan and Zero (Possibly her worst match-ups go figure).


#19

Started testing out the H. TK out of focus attack, kinda hit or miss so far since when it does hit I can easily feint it for a combo but when it misses the window to feint it is very tight


#20

There’s a specific window, after frame 5 (when the move goes active) and before whatever frame Viper goes airborne on that you have to hit. I’m not super consistent with it myself and usually go for throw break ways OS’s with EX Seismo.