s.MP or c.HP?

balrog

#1

I’ve just seen a bunch of videos from LordAborgine’s YT page where Pamyu uses s.MP as a AA, ST stylee instead of c.HP during NSB12.

I find that s.MP has decent priority and comes out much faster than c.HP, but because as a a Rog player you are always in a down-back position, I can never react quick enough to do s.MP.

Any thoughts?


#2

When you’re standing, do s.strong, when you’re crouching, do cr.fierce. I don’t know, that seems most logical to me :wink:
c.fierce generally seems like the better option for AA; but if youre walking forwards, and the opp jumps on you, just s.strong him.


#3

it depends. one hits targets that are more on top of you (c.HP) and the other hits targets that are far away coming in (s.MP)

both have uses. If you find yoruself tradiing when you use your c.HP try a s.MP next time.


#4

I wanted to chime in with my two cents and if you don’t mind, I’d like to go a step further and explain why one will work better and how you may be able to improve your whole game based around this question.

First off, both these guys know what they are talking about. I play with foxisquick on Xbox Live and he knows his stuff. So definitely take their advice. One other thing to consider is that cr.HP takes a lot more time to come out than your st.MP. So if you are playing against characters that have a low jump with a low arc, you may not have time to crouch on reaction and press HP. Therefore, on some characters like Gen or Blanka, you may have to use st.MP for an AA on reaction. On the flip side, if you are up against real lofty characters like Chun-Li, Vega, M. Bison, you most certainly have the time to crouch and hit HP.

Now when I said I wanted to add a bit more this is what I’m referring to: You said that because you are a 'Rog player you are always in a down back position. You can’t afford to do this in higher levels of play, unless it is for good reason and only a short period of time. Crouching would be good if you know your opponent is going to jump in on you and you are just camping that jump in waiting to cr.HP it. But otherwise, there isn’t a whole lot of need to keep a down charge. Unless you are 100% certain that you are going to Buffalo Head someone out of the air, think twice. It has such a long start up that people can jump in, baiting you into using a Buffalo Head, and land and block before it comes out and you are likely to eat an Ultra as a result. Stay on your feet, move around in and out of Rog’s poke range. If you move into what the opponent thinks is a good cross up range for them and they go for it only to find out that you suddenly begin to back peddle, Boom! st.MP out of the air. Then you have the mix up game of attacking them when they land from being knocked out of the air as well. Be sure to utilize his great pokes more and don’t always think you have to a special move ready to go at any moment. Rog’s normals are good enough to deal with most any situation (sans fireballs, right?)


#5

Good point. But Rog’s hitbox is lower when you crouch, so the difference in startup is somewhat compensated for by that. (I think… :looney: )

This.

Too many people rely on down-back. Rog has good normals, and you have enough time to charge for headbutt, when you connect cr.jab into BnB.


#6

Some stuff real quick:

  • both st mp and cr hp have the same amount of startup frames (7). However st
    mp has less active hit frames and less recovery frames so in that sense it is “faster”

  • the only difference In startup that you would have to account for is the time it takes for balrog to go from crouching position to standing (my guess is 3 or 4 frames, but I haven’t been able to find any evidence to support this)

  • In other words, if you are already standing, st mp is your quicker than cr hp and vice versa

  • me personally will use cr hp exclusivley. But If I’m playing someone who likes jumping in, jump up, etc, I will use st mp because of it’s vertical hotbox


#7

Jay Wang: Thank you for setting me straight on the frame data. I shouldn’t have assumed that st.MP executed faster only because it felt like it did. I suppose it felt that way due to the recovery time and active frames as you pointed out. One question I do have concerning this though, and I’m not one hundred percent sure on it, is if your opponent is jumping in at you and you use a st.MP does it always use the far standing MP because they are in the air, or does it switch to close standing MP when they reach a certain proximity?

I ask because if it does use the close standing MP, that one executes in 6, active for 4, recovers in 12 and does 80 damage. Now the far standing MP executes in 7 (yes you are correct, same as cr.HP), active for 2, recovers in 16 and does 90 damage. I suppose I could test it out in training mode.

I’m not pointint this out to say that standing MP does indeed execute quicker because you may throw out the far MP and it’d be the same and the close MP is only 1 frame quicker. I know that can make the difference sometimes, but its not a big enough difference to try to change stances over as you did mention. From start to finish st.MP is a significantly quicker move so if they jump just short of your hitbox you may be safer, but again not worth of changing stances IMO.

Does anyone know the precise angle, or height the attacking hit box travels along? If one hitbox travels higher or has more priority it looks like we should be looking at that, as well as Balrog’s hitbox and the difference between standing and crouching when it comes to being hit by the jump in, seeing as how the execution frames are identical or damn near identical as Jay Wang pointed out. So any thoughts on priority, hit box positions, risk/reward for difference in damage scored from each?


#8

StevoKanevo, if your op is close to you during the jump in when you input the standing strong it will do the close version instead of the far version, the same as if they were standing next to you. In addition to it being faster than far strong, as you pointed out, it’s hitbox is more in line with low fierce’s hitbox, in that it is more vertical. The downside is that if your op does an early/mid jump in attack then you’re probably going to get hit before they are close enough for a close strong to come out.


#9

i may be wrong about this (i don’t have the ability to test it right now), but it seems like the opponent needs to be close to you (on the horizontal axis) as well as deep (on the vertical axis) before your normals come out as their close versions. if the opponent is still high in the air above you, it seems like the far version comes out regardless of their proximity.


#10

Actually, the opposite is true. As long as your op is close on X it doesn’t matter where he is on Y. It doesn’t make a lot of sense, but that’s how it is.

EDIT - Here’s a visual aid to help illustrate, because everyone loves visual aids. (I sure do)

[media=youtube]Kt1MAnUtljM"[/media]


#11

xaaz, Thank you for confirming when a close normal versus a far normal comes out and going the extra step by making the video (clever, good thing the y-axis has no effect because i never would have even thought about it). Furthermore, thanks for the insight as to the plausibility of being able to execute a standing close strong against an early jumping attack.

Just for future reference, does anyone know of any character specific jump ins that cr.HP will lose or trade and that st.MP nets you a better result?


#12

good shit on the video proof + examples xaaz!!
looks like we all learn something new everyday!

oh yeah and slightly offtopic but:

the reason why in ST you see some balrog players (as well as cammy, deejay for example) use the close st MP as an anti air is because it acts as an option select.

if they try to mix you up with up and down games during the block string --> st MP hits them out of the air
if they try to mix you up and go for a tick throw --> st MP is seen as a tech input


#13

Thank you for all your informative posts - this was the kind of debate I hoped to incite. The frame data talk was a bonus!


#14

well it all depends, i’ve noticed that c.HP is a little better when a character is more over top of you. and s.MP is a little better when they’re farther away. i use c.HP a little more often though since i’m in the Down-Back position mostly.


#15

as a matter of fact, yes. thats what i was looking in here for actually. it seems that Bison’s jump fierce (HP, sorry im old school) if done just as hes descending will beat out rogs crouch fierce. this is bad. i recently got perfected in a tournament one round all because i got naile with a huge combo cause i tried to down fierce his jump in fierce. i have found that you need to get your crouch fierce out really early in order to beat Bisons jump in. also, rogs standing strong (MP) is sometimes a better choice when Bison jumps in.

another time that i use standing strong as an AA quite frequently is against Zangief. A lot of giefs will empty jump your crouch fierce when you try to zone em. then you get ultra’d, which blows. So on Gief, when i bait jump ins i like to walk forward and use standing strong to close the gap.


#16

if zangief attacks at the last possible moment of his jump-in, doesn’t s.mp trade in zangiefs favour?


#17

^ not if you hit him before he gets the attack out.