Sagat Combo Thread

sagat

#281

Counter-hit combo:

Many characters have forward moving moves that far standing MK stuffs easily. I’ve been doing this off and on, but noticed that RF does this regularly on Yun’s turn punch. The MK stuffs it, but Yun is still very close. With the counter-hit and it being a far standing MK, Sagat is at like a +5 or +6 (not exactly sure how the counter hit system works). That means that you can easily do a cr lp after into an EX TS. In some instances, you might be able to do a TU, but I think too often you will be too far away to make it consistently. So, I’m going to say that the EX TS is the best option with one bar, LTS FADC into anything is the best option if you have 2 bars.

SO:

on a counter hit far standing mk on a forward moving character, the best combos IMO are:

MK, LP, HK
MK, TU
MK, EX TU
MK, TU FADC fwdHK, Ultra
MK, HK
MK, cr LP xx LTS
MK, cr LP xx EX LTS
MK, cr LP xx LTS FADC cr MP xx MK TK

NOTE: At perfect spacing, sagat can do the cr LP combos on every character even without a counter-hit, but it is difficult to do and really not worth the effort in the off chance that you are the exact pixel distance to land it in a real match. The counter hit is more guaranteed to land the rest of the combo if it is on a character who moved into the kick. Also, if you get in the habit of buffering TU, you could land it 100% of the time. Just toss your MK out there out of hopes of stuffing something, you see that you got a counter hit, start hitting that HP or EX TU.


Sagat Frame Traps?
#282

Good post

I use stand MK so much because as you said it’s one of his only good pokes between mid and close range AND it happens to be really good but, I never even thought about the possibility of CH combos from it


Ottawa Thread 2014
#283

I started accidentally linking it to standing HK in matches and realized that we were missing out. I’m still trying to understand the exact spacing, but linking a cr lp is like a 2 or 3 frame link, pretty simple.


#284

About the **cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.LP xx HP TU. **I have been trying this on and off, half-assed for a while and could never get it consistent.
I recently decided to really figure this out, and I sat in training mode for 1/2 hour to see what was up.

I am holding (down back) while i hit **cr.LK, cr.LK, **then I hold (down forward) while I’m about to hit cr.LP. This is where the problem is. Sometimes, a high tiger shot comes out right as I release the **LP **from the **c.LP. **I think this is preventing my TU from coming out because the high tiger shot is being buffered. I don’t press any other buttons, the last input I see is (down forward) **LP **and yet as soon as I release LP, a high tiger shot.

Other times, I see the same exact inputs and yet the high tiger shot doesn’t come out. This is when I can sometimes get the **TU **to come out but it’s definitely not consistent. For some reason, it comes out a lot more when I’m to the right of the opponent instead of left. This might give me a clue as to why **HP TU **doesn’t come out sometimes.

A few questions:

  1. Why is the tiger shot coming out after I release **LP **from the (down forward) c.LP, and it is the last input I make?
  2. Am I supposed to be holding (down forward) as I’m pressing c.LP? I figured you needed to because from there, you can shortcut input (down)(downforward) **HP **for the HP TU. I find it very difficult to go from (down)**c.LP **and cancel that into HP TU. Also, when I just do (down forward) c.LP xx HP TU without the **c.LK, **the **HP TU **always comes out.

#285
  1. You get negative edge :lp:. That is, for specials, releasing a button counts as an input (and the last :df: comes with it). If you do :d:,:df::lp:,:df::lp:<release>, the game gets its 3-directions input and shortcuts to cancel to TS. If you don’t release on time, or released as soon as you touched it, :d:,:df::lp: gets you only :lp:.

You have to focus on getting clean button inputs to avoid delayed negative edge, most of the time.

  1. Half answer: I prefer clean inputs. They’re more reliable in the long term. So, :db::lk:,:db::lk:,:f:,:d::lp:,:df::hp:.
    As soon as you hit the 2nd :lk:, go immediately to :f:, then hit the :d::lp: link.

#286

Thanks kraal. I can already do it more consistently now thanks to your advice, and at least I know what I need to be drilling.


#287

By the way, is there any reason that **cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.LP xx HP TU **is preferred over **cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.LP xx HP TK **besides when you want to FADC ultra?

Is TU more reliable than TK in this combo? It seems TK doesn’t whiff when it’s supposed to hit.
Because TK has advantages in that:

  1. More damage
  2. Pushes opponent away from you/into the corner
  3. Less time for opponents to get ready to punish you with a big combo in case you miss the link, though I think this point is very debatable (I don’t know the actual frame data on this, but I assume that your opponent seeing you fly up in the air automatically cues punish mode, whereas tiger knee might cause a slight delay).

#288

Both are very unsafe on block… so don’t miss the link or you will eat a high damaging combo. Landing a TK at the end of the combo on a crouching opponent has a couple of negative aspects. First of all, often you only get one hit making it less damaging than a TU… and that’s the best case of the downsides. On many crouching opponents, the TK will hit the first hit and leave you very punishable while doing less damage than a TU would have done. Or, the spacing will be wrong and you will only get the second hit blocked at an unsafe distance leaving you open for a high damaging combo. All in all, TU is much better.


#289

[media=youtube]X9mZbf1D4VQ[/media]
EDIT If you read earlier notes, they were probably wrong.

Okay, so some of the frame data in the video is wrong. Mainly because I was trying to do it from memory and didn’t know some of the facts off hand.

-SO-

Here is the deal. A HTS does 30 frames of hit stun and a LTS does 31 frames of hit stun. I wanted to find a way to use that massive amount of hit stun and get a sick frame advantage and see what I could do. So I found this setup on my second try to find a way to land meaty Tiger Shots. I want to emphasize that this was my second attempt, so that maybe others will look for a similar setup.

Now, here is what I’m assuming in calculating the frame data:
1: There is 61 frames of grounded time from a back throw and the opponent is first able to be hit on frame 62. I am assuming this off of the apparent advantage to neutral state that you are in from Jiji’s back throw to crossup TK setup. If this is inaccurate, please let me know so that I can adjust my numbers

2: That there is in fact 31 frames of hit stun on a LTS.

  1. With that assumed, off of a back throw, Sagat placing a sweep on the first active frame possible and releasing a Tiger Shot the first frame possible after that on a crouching opponent will hit.

If all three are the case, then Sagat is going to be +15 on hit.

Now, on a standing opponent, a Low Tiger Shot of that precision will miss. So, adding a frame or two into this will lead to being about +13, but hit more consistently.

Since Sagat’s HTS has less recovery, his frame advantage SHOULD be higher, but it might not be. You have to add those extra one or two(maybe even 3) frames in for a HTS to hit, because it comes out a frame faster. But you will still be about +14 to +16 on hit (from what I could land and my calculations).

Now, you will be a considerable distance away, so your options on what you can hit with are your farthest reaching normals

Here is a basic instructions in case the video isn’t crystal clear:
after a back throw into a corner,

Use a sweep to set up proper timing (32 frames)
Then execute a jab HTS with up to 3 frames of delay (but probably one or two)
or a short LTS with up to 2 frames of delay
then follow it up however you wish.

Normals you can combo into that I’ve done:

HK
C HP
C HK
MK
C MK

You can do basically any combo after a C MK. Like a TS FADC combo, or into a EX TK, or probably into super. Play around with it. C Mk is difficult to land on standing opponents, but stupid easy on crouching.

Specials you can combo into that I’ve done:

EX HTS
EX LTS

I’ve only tried Ultra 2, but it lands successfully on a HTS.

I think you could:

Combo into a low step kick
Combo into standing short
Combo into EX TK as a true blockstring
Combo into super after standing HP or C MK
Combo into Ultra 1

I will keep this in the lab and see if there are any sweet character specific setups.

Now, there are many characters who you are forcing to sit there and take it in this situation (some no matter what, others if they are meterless). I haven’t tested which characters it works best on, but I have my suspicions. Keep in mind, that you can use this as a sweet frame trap opportunity, or to force an Ultra 2 chip. On Rufus, without meter, he HAS to block or get hit. And because of his big hit box, you can land a meaty HTS for max frame advantage and connect to ultra. If he is low on life, you can deal a good 45 chip damage from this alone and he can’t get out of it. Even if blocking the first one gives him meter, Ultra 2 hits him in block stun and he can’t reversal out of it, it is a true block string.

Edit*

Here are the characters I suspect this would have a legitimate place against:

Dhalsim, Cody (maybe EX Bingo would beat it, but there could be potential option selects for this? will test), Chun (Without meter), Honda (Without meter), Blanka (without meter), Vega (not sure, but probably without meter), Bison (without meter), El Fuerte (without ultra?), Sakura (without super meter, but maybe potential option selects to beat her EX Shoryu), Rose (without meter), Guy (I think that even with meter, at that distance, there are options to beat his EX reversal.), Ibuki (without meter), Makoto (without her wall jump ultra), Rufus has no options without meter and HTS hits him crouching, I can’t see Abel having anything that would beat it except his ultras.

Keep in mind, all of my frame data is rough and I am basing it off of what I have tested. I could be a couple of frames off, but it seems that these combos are stupid easy. I’m gonna test other setups to see if I can find a couple of other ways to make these combos more practical.

I obviously need to put this to test in matches, but it can’t be a bad tool if some characters are forced to take it.


#290

Remember , Sagat wakes up 1 frame later then other characters , it might not give as much advantage or even work meaty using the same set up on other chars. nice stuff regardless , also can u believe I actually never knew low TS gave more blockstun then High TS , reminds me just how beautiful vanilla fireball game was :frowning:

Also i think the trickiest thing to do after the TS is forward .LK. It hits low but starts up late , the advantage would take care of the late start up , and it can be tricky to see it coming. gonna test it out myself


#291

I didn’t know that about sagat, but never the less, then you would just need that additional frame for sagat whereas other characters you don’t. But, even if you are a frame or two slow, you still get some sick frame advantage and can do some true blockstrings/frame traps.

I discovered that about his hit/blockstun when trying to calculate the frame advantage. And the low step kick might be 1 frame off from being a true block string for sagat, so as long as they aren’t mashing a reversal, it should be safe and you are at the right distance.

Again, I literally just figured it out, and I’m hoping that you guys can figure out more uses.

And here is me landing it in a real match. Obviously it isn’t a high level player, but I was fishing for it for three games and got it on the third. I think it’s viable, but shouldn’t be overused

[media=youtube]-LOGVtG-8ao[/media]

Since I haven’t built the muscle memory for this, I didn’t capitalize on the opportunity. I could have used EX TS for ultra or FADC canceled and still comboed into ultra. BUT, if I land it in more games, I’ll add it here.


#292

good shit!


#293

I’m working on a setup for a forward throw in the corner. So far I have a few setups, but I’m trying to see if they are 100% air tight. It’s difficult for me to record, because some of the really tight ones require a crouching opponent.

But these are the setups I’ve gotten to work:

Forward throw, cr lp, neutral jump, LTS, but all I can consistently combo into is a cr MK because of the distance
Forward trhow, lp, neutral jump, LTS, but all I can consistently combo into is a cr MK because of the distance


#294

Its better to go for the unblockable /or meaty safe jump set ups in the corner off stand throw. Which is = stand throw , dash in , dash back , jump lk. or for the meaty set up , stand throw , whiff cr.hp , whiff cr.mp , jump HK.


#295

Good to know.


#296

I also found a meaty TS setup off of a sweep, but it’s not as reliable in terms of frame advantage because different sweep distances require different timing. From max range, I was using cr mk to set up the timing. It worked pretty good, but if you are too close, the TS just misses.


#297

Can someone tell me what a solid punish is for when I dizzy opponents? At the moment, all I have is a FA > s.MP xx TU.


#298

I like pushing them to the corner so I usually end the combo with TK.


#299

Maybe some of the more experienced members can answer this. If I OS block in my blockstring and toss in a back HP to C Viper, would I get hit by her uppercut? and would I get a counter hit off of an EX Seizmo that would put me at like +6 and be able to mash out an uppercut?


#300

Yes you would be able to block , I use this myself personally. Works well against people with no wake up who like to slow reversal or wake up backdash. I use it often v M.bison / chun etc/