Sagat performance in Topanga League

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
#1

Firstly I know there is a general Topanga discussion thread. I wanted to know if anyone had any Sagat specific insights into the results so far.

To recap, these are the Sagat matches (after 3 rounds):

Bonchan (Sagat) 3 – 0 RF (Sagat)
Momochi (Cody) 1 – 3 RF (Sagat)
Tokido (Akuma) 3 – 2 Bonchan (Sagat)
Sako (Ibuki) 3 – 0 RF (Sagat)
Kazunoko (Seth) 3 – 2 Bonchan (Sagat)
Bonchan (Sagat) 3 – 1 Haitani (Makoto)
Bonchan (Sagat) 2 – 3 Mago (Fei Long)
Daigo Umehara (Ryu) 3 – 1 Bonchan (Sagat)

How much of these results come down to matchup balance vs player skill? Does anything surprise you or alter your view of where Sagat stands in 2012?

#2

is there any post or a way to see these fights??

#3

Only one that really sticks out is RF going 3 zip against Ibuki. But RF has alway’s been more of a simple zoner IMO.

I’d think Bonchan could handle that match much better.

#4

ibuki has alot of tools to get around fireballs, but if you have like super clean perfect zoning, reaction, execution and good reads. she can’t do shit.

just like akuma, ibuki will fuck you up with rush down frame traps for the knock down.

man, so brutal if they knock you down.
its just rock, paper, scissor mix up in the vortex, its 30% options and still in her favor cause shit she does is safe.

the only way to beat her is not get knock down, easier said than done though.
RF is a crazy sagat, but bonchan is still the best sagat in the world.

hopefully i can see these fights soon.

#5

rf has really good footsies

#6

sagat didn’t do so hot, both are @ the bottom.

#7

Not to be a dick, but I feel like this is true for every character, not just ibuki.

#8

Ibuki matchup got slightly harder as she was buffed and well sagat… got cmp glitch fixed which yea helps but that new counter hit normal she has is disgusting i think its a heavy attack not sure cant remember. But tbh i knew sagat wasn’t going to do well in this. Akuma still beats sagat but i feel the matchup is better. Ibuki beats sagat (though its winnable) Fei still beats sagat (but it got a little better) and Ryu imo has the edge in the matchup now imo it was even matchup in AE or 5.5 sagat but now with ryu cmk being buffed and hp dp and fireball dmg buffs its swung to his favor ryu is the best shoto type character now imo. A fair few matchups got worse for sagat this is exactly what i knew was gonna happen when i was saying sagat needed a buff.But some ppl disagreed still early but lets see as time goes on what will happen just remember i called it :stuck_out_tongue: haha

#9

Tiger Knee damage needs a buff and another 20 on Tiger Uppercut. Sagat needs to take advantage of his game. It’s not right that doosh Ryu can jump a tiger shot and deal out damage. There should be a BIG disadvantage on jumping Sagat.

Thats how it was, that’s how it should always be. If you Jump Sagat you pay the price. Somewhere that shit got lost in development.

#10

Preach it!

#11

Huh? What? Brah Capcom is DONE with this game. They CLEARLY want Sagat to NOT be really good. He doesn’t need a buff he needs stupid nerfs that don’t make any sense FIXED.

#12

i mean time will tell in terms of learning matchups etc. even gouken is becoming a pain in the ass.

#13

this is my opinion ppl can disagree or whatever but theres no changing my mind on this view. Sagat is a decent character he is a character imo that requires alot more skill then most. The issue with him is he has a few very bad weaknesses in which are not compensated by super strengths. 1. like you said his anti not enough damage and its also not as reliable as other characters i find that its harder to dp with sagat then it is with ryu or akuma when ppl jump 2 frames slower his taller so often can be hit on the head on startup ( to stop this you must dp late which means that 160 damage you should get becomes 120. for those who dont know if you uppercut ppl high up its more damage) 2. his fireball recovery on low shots is too slow again this ties in with not much damage on anti air without ultra. My whole beef with where they took sagat is they nerfed the shit outta him when he really should not have copped it so bad in vanillla sagat could lost a lot i never had a beef with his damage being more fair but jesus they cut off his damn balls. ryu’s dp should never do more then sagats as anti air why should it ? its 3 frames which means u cant safe jump the fucker and he can combo medium to heavy then dp . seriously its a fuckin joke sakura a japanese school girl does more damage… viper does more cammy does more i can go on for hours on how many characters do more damage and whats worse is they have better normals/mobility. why the fuck they buffed certain characters the way they did i’ll never understand. back to my beef about sagats weakness. Stand light kick its disgusting that at a certain range sagat is pretty much a vagina waiting to be raped whereas before he had slk cancel into a shot or a tigerknee. And finally ok they dont want sagat to be op in terms of up close pokes then for fuck sake give him a decent reward for the 3 quarter to full screen game by allowing normal shots to juggle. oh i forgot my favorite one i like to bitch about . ULTRA 1 GLITCH why the fuck they left this is seriously beyond me , you nerf his damage his you nerf his fireball you nerf his footsies you nerf his health why in gods name would you at least not allow full ultra to connect? capcom might say but you can auto correct YES i can you sons of bitches but 2 things happen you fucktards 1. i lost corner pressure 2. I corner myself . How is this fair? some ppl say i complain too much you know what i say ive stuck with the same character since the start of the series and all i wanted was some sorta damn buff to combat the other characters who got stronger but no Sagat is good enough. ONO san FUCK YOU. Rant over i hope SFXT is a better game cos they butchered the shit outta sf4 which for the first two versions was fantastic i even prefer the first Ae compared to 2012. bLAH

#14

Anyone watch bonchan vs tokido. He did some sick stuff but tokido was blowing him up pretty good

#15

I would gladly keep all the nonsensical nerfs (weak uppercut, slow recovery on tiger shots, tiger knees that at the safe range do absolutely shit damage, the gayness that is his ultra in the corner), if I could cancel a standing short from max range. That was such a great tool…

#16

i used to want this tool back the most at one stage… but if i was to get one thing back now it would be vanilla fireballs. im finding the main i lose is no longer the footsies game i lose cos ppl guess jump or jump at really close range while ive committed to a poke that is either still in recovery or im 1f of gettin my dp out still working at it.

#17

As a Makoto main I feel that perhaps you aren’t looking at it from the correct side. Guessing jump is something you don’t need better tools you need better play to deal with. Fukiage is an 8F (for LP) move that whiffs completely on standing and can’t really be used for a deep jump in because it will miss if you don’t do it at just the right time during a jump. Now taking that into consideration you need to use your TU earlier because the TU is more damaging by a HUGE margin when it hits on the later frames. Or you need to find other tools/OSes to deal with the jump ins. If your current tools aren’t working, make new ones.

TU is still the strongest DP in terms of damage output if you have good reactions and use it to stop jump ins. 160dmg for HP TU is no slouch. Ryu only gets 160 for his HP if he uses it on the early frames, if he does it as an anti air he is only getting 60dmg. Plus the threat of an Angry Scar TU for 180 (or 250 if you do EX. That is practically a 2bar super) can deter jump ins.

I do think that his TK 2nd hit should have more dmg slightly. However I don’t think the total damage should be raised (it is already 120/140/160/180(ex)) but redistributing 10points from the first hit to the 2nd hit would make the safe knee stronger. Of course you’d also have less damage for any combo scaling though but more damage to use it for what you want it to be. It would make safe TKs into 40/50/60 dmg + 100 stun which would put it on about the same level as a tiger shot.

I think that RF and Bonchan were simply suffering from 2 things. 1. The fact that many of the people playing in Topanga are maining characters that Sagat specifically has trouble with (Makoto, Seth, Ibuki, Sakura) and 2. They are facing players that are simply out playing them. When Daigo is only in 6th and Tokido didn’t even make top 8 it says something about the strength of their competitors.

#18

Those aren’t particular recognised bad matches for Sagat. Not at the un winnable by any stretch. Mak, Seth and Sakura are all 5-5 worst case scenario, Ibuki is a slight advantage but at the same time Gat can keep her out pretty well.

Lets pretend though and take those 4 you mentioned, tag on Dhalsim, Guy, Viper, Ryu, (now Juri if I swallow my initial figures) Fei Long, Akuma - You’ve got to be fucking Steven Hawking to even be on point in half of those matches. Put it this way , imagine entering a tournament and your route to the Final is - Guy, Ryu, Ibuki, Seth, Viper, Fei and Akuma (not hella unlikely) ? If I ran through that lot , I wouldn’t want a medal, I’d want a gawd damn Lamborgini with Angelina Jolie in the passenger seat.

Sagat’s just got to work overtime in a large portion of his matches, one mistake and it could be goodnight. How many top characters can you say that about? I mean Bison players bitch about Guile, but I’ll take one un winnable match over 8 difficult ones. I’m not even saying half of those matches are bad matches, but each of them pose a particularly difficult scenario that takes Sagat out of his game and puts him in a new one each time.

This post probably seems strange for me, but I go through swings with Sagat where I think he’s awesome, then I think he’s utter garbage.

#19

Not to menton staying on point with sagat is draining as hell. Hard to not auto pilot outside of tournaments.

#20

TU earlier to hit Makoto’s instant dive kick? I’ve never seen any Sagat reacted to that before, except guessing and reading the move ahead. I don’t think TU can hit her with the high air dmg at low point anyway. If you’re talking about regular high, deep jump in, of course that is easy to react.

(Makoto, Seth, Ibuki, Sakura) I don’t think those are not bad matchups for Sagat, but Tokido’s Gouki sure is the bad matchup.