SERIOUSLY?!, the Hakan AE 2012 change wishlist!

Well we’re looking at another update for SF4, with SSF4 AE ver. 2012. Hakan still considered one of the worst characters in the game, (by the masses, not necessarily by one of us.) what would you like to see changed to Hakan in AE2012. I have a few ideas that MIGHT make him a bit OP and are probably just hopeless dreaming at this point. But hey a Hakan main can dream, right?! :smiley:

Ideas for Hakan:
Start the round with Mk oil
Invincibility on EX slide
Dash cancel out of 360-k when oiled instead of just coward crouch cancel (maybe too strong…I dunno I just would like it. :D)
A proper grappler grab (2 frames like T.Hawk and Gief)
Proper grappler health (1100 like T.Hawk and Gief)

Absolutely nothing.

As for counterpoints to yours:

What would you say hakans main focus is? Sure he isn’t the most traditional grappler, but really it comes down to mixup and gimmicks based around the grabs, and link combos? Hakan does have a slightly easier time getting in, though, to counterpoint myself I guess.

I don’t know, the health I could do without (since oil gives him more defense anyway, and its only 50, tbh I could do without mostly any buffs), but I would really love to see him have a grappler grab.

I knew he had invincibility on EX slide, I guess I should have put more invincibility, haha.

And about the oil, I think he even now in AE needs to have a slightly easier time getting oiled. imo Hakan should be oiled more than dry, for the most part. Maybe Slightly less frames on oils across the board.

Hakan’s main gameplan is akin to Haggar from MvC: you don’t WANT to grab people, you want to hit them. Hitting them is more beneficial than getting a grab, due to damage, type of knowdown, followups, et cetera.

Hakan’s grab is more of just a tool to have, not one to focus on. It lets you deal with blocking well, but you don’t necessarily have to use it. As with many things, the threat of it is more useful than the application.

As a character, you WANT to focus on counter hit setups, blockstrings, etc. For example, CH xx hp slide does around 313 damage, all for them trying to crouch tech… So, what would you rather do?

-J.rh delay, then tick FP SPD?
-J.rh delay , then ch xx slide?

The first option gets some damage, sure, but at what cost? The throw only does around 180 damage unoiled, and leaves you in a less than stellar situation to mixup.

The second option lets you counter a throw tech (which you setup by doing a neutral/forward throw, which does meh damage but can get you a rh oil) for beefy damage AND a very good knockdown situation.

And gimmicks? No, you don’t really need gimmicks; Hakan can be and is a very solid character when played as such. Solid defense, antiairs, offense (now, in AE, anyway), and footsies all combine to make a good deal. I mean, you can add gimmicks in for sure, just like every other character. But no, they aren’t necessary and are NOT the core of gameplay.

As for oil, oil is also fine as is. You’re fighting to get oil at the start of a round. When you get it, you can work on getting more with increased mobility or by going on the offensive and utilizing knockdowns. Even then, it isn’t completely necessary as Hakan can very much so defend himself without it. He can keep people out marginally well, so if you’re getting rushed up the ass then you have to work on that.

Slight increase on his SPD range when unoiled, just a couple of pixels extra. His anti-block string game is fine when oiled, but being pressure when dry can be a bit of a problem. Increasing the range of dry SPD should help a little bit.

An overhead, possibly something that has a large kara-cancel window (like Honda’s overhead). Again, helps with his dry game. From my experiences, one of the hardest matchups for Hakan are characters who can turtle/zone/keepaway efficiently (Ryu, Rose, Chun Li). When your dry, its HELL just to get near them. A landed overhead can really improve the matchup for Hakan as well as put a player on notice. Plus, if it has a huge window for a kara, you can do some mix-ups by canceling the overhead into either SPD or DDT (just like Honda overhead to his command throw)!

If anything, I’d like to see him gain another link into oil slide, though, while writing this I’m not sure what it would be that doesn’t already make sense. But…while we’re talking and wishing (in a completely off the wall kind of way in my case), how about this as a completely crazy idea for oil slide…

Make each strength of the oil slide go the same length when oiled, but give you the ability to coward crouch to cancel the animation and stop him in his tracks.

Like I said, not beneficial in anyway, but it kinda makes me laugh to think about the oil slide cancel shenanigans that could be had.

I would disagree on thenotsogreatbrain’s point about zoners, to be honest. I find my biggest advantages are against zoning characters, especially the ones whose zoning game is fireball based. With a little prediction, you can easily use EX oil and EX oil slide to get in quick (and in rare cases the slide will be safe on block and you can throw follow up. It doesn’t happen often, and I can’t remember when it is safe, but I’ve seen it happen every so often…I should look into that or see if that is in a guide anywhere).

The exception I would say is Guile, just because he recovers so quickly from his fireball, and typically you wont be able to catch a solid guile player off guard with the EX slide. But, considering that Hakan should be spending and not saving his meter (in my opinion), this is something to always consider, no matter how rudimentary it seems. =)

Personally, my worst match-ups tend to be Balrog, Bison, Guile and DeeJay. Something about charge move characters I’m not good at handling. Grr.

I’ve always made Hakan’s gameplay plan to that of a Bulldog. He’s kinda slow and awkward, but once you get him on you it can be hard to get him off. Hakan’s use of normals are his biggest advantage, as I really feel his normal selection is a veritable swiss army knife.

If I had to say I truly wanted anything at all, it would be a wake-up option to deal with dive kicks. They just piss me off. ;\ lol

The only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, is that I wish that Hakan’s Super was a little bit more forgiving. Obviously, it would be crazy OP if it turned into a dive-grab that got anything in its path, but man, sometimes I end up leaning in my chair just to try and give Hakan that extra little distance for it to connect. Anyone who has played a driving game knows this doesn’t work.

Honestly, I LOVE the changes AE brought about. Hakan feels solid, and feels like he plays like he should. It can be frustrating because his gameplay is such that the top, top, top players are going to be better off using other characters, but that doesn’t mean Hakan isn’t a solid character in other situations.

That being said, I’m not the best or most knowledgable player, so I’m sure there are ideas that would make his gameplay even more rounded.

As someone that likes to try and use his Super regularly, it hurts that it just doesn’t connect against anything. My big wish is that it connected easier against opponent that were in the air. Hell, I wouldn’t mind if oil dive became an air only throw. =/

But, I agree. Hakan isn’t given anything easy, but he has the tools to be a quality tier character. But, given the choice between playing an easy grappler like Zangief or playing Hakan, you can guess who most will pick.

How about, when oiled, you can slide your coward crouch forward and back if you wish. ha ha


What about more active frames on the oil dive to make it more viable to uncrouchable on reset?

And CC out of any oil-up?

Active frames would do nothing for uncrouchable DDTs except make them easier to time. No new characters would be affected. At the very least it would make it possible to catch -some- backdashes, but to do that you need like 5~ extra frames. And that is quite a bit to ask for.

How about this - change the Super from that dive grab to Hakan immolating himself (requires oil) and he becomes sort of like Rose with those orbs.

I just think it’s a wasted opportunity! Although, it’s out of character. Don’t you know that Hakan hates smokers for that reason?

My wishlist:
[]One invisible slide at startup (not ex-slide, ex-slide is ok as it is… slide.lp also seems ok, so probably mp or hp)… Shotos usually have invincible at startup, I don’t see why Hakan shouldn’t have the same.
]Make ex-oil dive invincible to hits and grabs, its kind of useless right now… too slow and has no invisibility just to get a bit more of damage.
[]Make guard position recovery faster
]Make s.hp startup faster, compensate by making the recovery slower so the total animation frames is the same
[]Give and more priority. Maybe also. Maybe safer. Good way to test the normal moves is agains fei long c.hp, Hakans should probably loose to this move… but I don’t see why doesn’t work agains it :expressionless:
]Make considered air move
[]Make crossup
]Don’t nerf f.lp, I think its perfect.
[*]Make Hakan recover faster when he absorbs a hit with focus. For example, if you focus dash and cancel dash with a move it comes out fast… do the same when you absorb a move and you’ll notice a delay, without this delay crisco would be a much better tool.

Wow, bubafeast, that’s quite a wishlist!

Make better? Honestly, I think thats one of his best normal moves, if not the best. EX oil dive being only grab invincible is kinda lame yeah, I would rather have it fireball invincible or something more useful, the thing has crazy range though and does so much damage, don’t think it will get changed.

F.Hk is great already, no way will they buff the priority on that. C.Hk as an anti-air would be cool lol, but would be a little too good.

Speaking of which, please for the love of god make S.HP a reliable anti-air. I mean the amount of times I use it and it whiffs right through the opponent as they’re jumping in really annoys me. I don’t care that you’ve made it trade less, just make it so it doesn’t whiff randomly! That’s my only complaint really.

As for the focus absorb thing, no way will that get changed, you’re just not doing it fast enough, or using too slow a normal. Or instead just focus absorb backdash, comes out instantly.

Also maybe more plus frames on jab or lk…

Hakan really doesnt need anything, however if there is any thing that he does need, it revolves around Oil Fly spin (He’s super). Its been bothering me for the longest time. It can be effective at times but mostly every other character’s super is effective ALL the time, except his. How to rectify this? Simple.

  1. Since its a true anti air super let it grab out the air after a combo. You know how many times I wanted to Super a dead fall character after Jumping M.Punch?

  2. be able to cancel it. If Abel can cancel his U2, Hakan can cancel his Super. hell he can cancel the regular ones, why not his super version?

that’s it.

If there is another thing they “COULD” add. Make his crouching Fierce punch a over head attack. Yo. I know before you guys even say it, however. IMHO I always felt that it looks like one and it should be one. Also do you know how many wins this could add to Hakan players that faces CHARGE characters? It would make people fear Hakan even more and dont just sit down back 85% of the match, it will also help conserve our meter for other things instead of slide XX L.Kick XX SPD.

just my 2 cent.

-Super needs to be able to be coward crouched.
*Reasoning:the super is ment as direct punishment to predictable forward momentup(be it throw/projectile/attack). in failed cases, having the option to CC it should be viable, since he is still vulnerable in CC state, and loses 4 bars.

-Oil Dive needs a larger grab hitbox…like air throw range. or guy’s moonflip throw range even.
*Reasoning: The advantages of this move lie in the newfound ability to generate meter from squeek->crouching, the oki you get from landing it, and the forward momentum it provides(allowing for OS oil dives on jumpins). Its obvious flaws are its vulnerability to crouching characters, and the short window of active frames for throwing. Increasing the grab-hitbox would give hakan a stronger option to deter jumpy opponents and keep them on the ground.

-alot of his -5 on block need to be at least -4, via reduction of recovery(not increase of blockstun)
*Reasoning: -5 is decent on block. Off the top of my head it affects his s.F+mp, s.F+rk and c.hp. the -5 frame advantage is just on the cusp of making the utility of these moves of lesser effectiveness/safety in advancing against the whole cast. -4 makes <insert normal> safe enough to get hakan into ranges where he can pick at the opponent, yet still be punished in certain matchups.

-blocked s.lp/ needs like 1 or 2 more frames of advantage.
*Reasoning: Hakan just needs more + frame moves. and only by at least 1 frame on said normals to augment his advances. he has borderline Victor (youtube vampire savior) pressure when oiled. I think it would be interesting to further this.

-I think he needs more options after a successful angled, other than just s.F+rk/oil slide/u2.
*Reasoning: whether it be other normals that flip the opponent out, or adding super/oil dive to the list of specials; hakan would benefit with enhanced options in certain cases without being gamebreaking.

Haha Syn, I love the thought of what it would be like to juggle Super off a attack, haha. Fair to say that would be a little bit broken though, lol. Super isn’t that bad…in a way, it’s one of those supers where you have to be looking for it to land it, and sort of matchup dependant, hmm I dunno how they would buff super.

@gbursine - I love the idea of juggling different moves off, could create some interesting resets

Your probably right about and

EX oil dive is grab invinsible? really?

I want to be considered an air move, not that its better anti-air… so it can be used better as meaty anti-grab

About the focus, I have noticed a delay that its added to the focus cancel when you absorb a move. Try doing really fast criscos without absorbing an attack and then do it while absorbind an attack.

I’m almost with you Liquigen, I wouldn’t change almost anything about him… except his command grabs. His command grabs are among the worst in SF history, straight up. I’m down with Hakan being an unusual kind of grappler who shouldn’t depend on his grabs like Gief/Hawk do, but that doesn’t mean his grabs should be ass.

–Dry spd range needs to be larger than normal throw range (currently .93 to .97 range, shorter than many chars’ normal throws). I’m not saying it needs to be Gief spd range, even Gief hp spd, but it’s gotta be something in between.
–Ex spd should both unthrowable on startup. Startup is slower than Gief/Hawk spd, at least give him unthrowability if he spends a bar!
–Significantly reduce recovery on all spds and ddts. It’s not reasonable to give everyone in the game a free focus crumple into 20%-50% damage on reaction to a single missed command grab.

One non-grab related change:
–Dry ex slide+press should start up like dry lp slide & move as far as hp slide while retaining projectile invincibility. That is, not as good as oiled ex slide+press (not full screen or super fast), but… not terrible either.

Personally, I’d be scared to do much more to Hakan than that.

also, his slide is super cancellable, implying that at once point in time, super did juggle off of slide. I wouldn’t mind a damage reduction in the super just so that i could legitimately combo slideXXsuper