I recognize there are already plenty of threads on Breathless in elsewhere on SRK, including this Abel section. However, the Balrog forums are terribly uninformative and incomplete with regards to many things. That said, there is a dramatic lack of sensible data as to how Rog can counter Breathless without being *extremely *lucky.
I already know of many ways Rog can counter it, but Abel is **always **at advantage unless Rog has charge. Rog is at risk to do anything at medium range because he can’t jump over him or away from him if he delays it. It is also too fast at certain ranges to reactively dodge. This pretty much forces the Rog player to shut down his offense entirely so he can maintain charge at the constant, massive threat of U2.
Even upon knock down, it is absurdly risky, much more so than any other character (including Zangief), to attempt continued pressure. The only things I’m aware Rog can do on Abel’s wakeup are…
-do a meaty TAP (can be countered by EX TT)
-do a meaty Dash Low Smash (can be countered by EX TT)
-do a meaty Dash Swing Blow (can be countered by EX TT)
-wait, and do an EX headbutt at point blank range after flash if you don’t have U1 (if you don’t do EX headbutt extremely close, you will end up back in front of Abel, because his hitbox changes, and get hit)
-wait, and do U1 after flash (the absolute best option, but only if you are fortunate enough to have charge)
All of those are very poor options as they can be countered on reaction or stop match momentum entirely. With the level of risk there is to being hit, and the poor counter/bait options available on Abel’s wake-up (especially if you don’t have U1), it is more viable to never pressure Abel once you knock him down, giving him a bizarre match advantage. Breathless, as it is on Rog, counters every single wakeup pressure option at the same time.
This compounded with Abel’s natural mixup options, and U2 eliminating your ability to jump at all from nearly any viable range, makes the match have an extreme swing in his favor. especially considering you can’t even safe jump him once he has it. edit: incorrect info
**EDIT: BREATHLESS CAN BE SAFE JUMPED / JAN 2nd, 2011 **(thanks to HAV for promoting the idea)
For a safe jump after forward throw.
Jump in using FP. Use c.MK after the throw to time the jump-in. RH is more difficult to time a proper safe jump.
For a safe jump after backward throw.
Jump in using RH. Use c.jab after the throw to time the jump-in. If you use FP, it will whiff, causing Breathless to hit you quicker than usual.
The ability to safe jump does not eliminate the threat, but it helps to bait it. Be wary of using a safe jump on Abel as he can still EX TT you.
I need some genuine help from the Abel player-base to develop what Rog can do to counter Breathless.
ATYPICAL THINGS I TESTED
-Despite what you would expect you cannot do meaty jab (have it absorbed into armor) and special cancel into EX headbutt. You get grabbed before you can even cancel, truly absurd. edit: incorrect info
-I think you can jump in on Abel, have him activate, and then do EX headbutt immediately once you land (works because of the additional time gained in ultra flash) causing him to whiff it. However, this may be purely because the Abel player mistimes the ultra. edit: has been disapproved, does not work
-I am also not certain if you can jump and then mash back dash crazily and escape. It has worked before, but it may be another case of the Abel player mistiming his ultra. edit: has been disapproved, does not work
-*AMAZINGLY *Balrog’s U2 does NOT WORK after the flash on Breathless. You can almost see him whiff the throw for a moment before Abel snatches him out of it.
What legitimate options does Balrog have to counter U2 without retaining an absurd risk? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Other players feel free to post your character concerns in here as well, if your particular character thread does not have sufficient data.
EDIT: NEW INFO FROM JAVITS / JAN 2nd, 2011
To backup what HAV said initially, this thread is horribly riddled with wrong information. Im going to clear some things up…
you CANNOT cancel landing frames into ultra, super, or EX headbutt if Breathless was properly timed. If you were able to jump away, ultra, super or EX headbutt as you were landing, you did so during the 7 START-UP frames of breathless (it doesn’t grab until the 8th frame). If Abel properly times Breathless on your jump, there is NOTHING you can do. If you were able to “cancel” landing frames then everyone would just hold up and spam empty jumps on Abel with U2… You need to accept that you jumped wrong and then work other ways to attack other than jumping.
you CAN cancel low jab (or low short, or low strong) into super or headbutt as long as you cancel Immediately after the ultra freeze. If you try to cancel before the freeze it will not work. Meaty low strong gives you more frames to cancel and does more damage so it’s the better option for that situation.
you never have to waste meter with EX headbutt vs Breathless. Breathless is a throw and all headbutts are unthrowable. Fierce headbutt is the better option because it only does 10 less points of damage, same stun, has more range, and builds meter.
there is no such thing as “reversal timing” to make a headbutt (or any other non-armor break move in the game) break armor. The only way a non-armor break move can break armor is if it is truly a reversal (the words reversal will pop up on the screen)
Requirements for a reversal:
A) performing the move as you are waking up from knockdown state
B) performing the move as you are landing after being reset in the air
C) performing the move as you are coming out of Hitstun or blockstun.
you cannot do dirty bull on breathless because it is unthrowable.
Nick T. : charge times are not “full 2 or 3 seconds”. charge time for all of rogs special moves except TAP is [[ 55 frames ]] which is slightly under one second.
It amazes how little people know of this game’s engine and just other things that have been the same since street fighter 2…