Sf2 style throws... i don't get it!

so what am i missing here? i don’t really understand how they work, sometimes on my opponents wake-up i’ll go in to throw and get a normal, or get beaten out by non-reversal normals and specials. or i will go to throw, get thrown and not get a tech

so yeah coming from sf4 to this and marvel i just don’t understand how throws work at all, help me please.

get close, go to neutral, tap forward and punch = grab
walk up keep moving around and then walk up and and punch = punch

maybe. I play 3s.

In Sf4/SF3, there is no window where you’re invulnerable to throws on your wake-up, while St gives players throw invincibility on wake-ups. You have to hit them with a normal first and wait for the throw invincibility to wear off, then go for a throw. A classic example would be T. Hawk attacking you on your wake up with jumping fierce, low jab (throw invincibility is gone) tick into spd.

i strongly suggest giving the shoryuken ST wiki a quick read, it pretty much covers everything + the added randomness factor that ST has in its engine, where you go for a throw and a normal comes out, or who gets to throw who if both throw at the same time, it’s random at times. but yea it’ definitely an essential read if you’re just getting into ST . hope that helps

couple random notes on throws.

In SF2 there are no dedicated throw commands for normal throws like LP+LK in SF4. Throws are mapped to normal attack buttons and will come out as throws only when you are close enough and when your opponent is in a throwable state. If you mistime a throw a normal comes out.

There are no SF4 style techs in ST and HDR, only throw softening where you will land on your feet and only take about half the dmg. When you are being thrown press your throw button(s) within 13 frames after being thrown and this will happen. If you suspect your opponent is going for a throw and he is still within your throw range you can try to time your throw RIGHT as you are coming out of block or hitstun and this can result in you getting the throw instead of your opponent.

In ST or HDR the character who is waking up gets a 13 frame window of throw invulnerability so you can only do meaty attacks and not throws as they are standing up. The same throw invulnerability applies to characters who are being reset, like when you hit them in the air with a move that doesn’t knock them down or after a hold type throw like kens kneebash. Again you can only do meaty attacks in these situations. That is why you get a normal when you try to throw them on wakeup or in these situations

Throws in SF2 are instant, meaning no startup animation. Because of that when someone does a meaty on your wake-up and he is within your throw range you can reversal throw them and always beat their meaty attack if you successfully time your reversal throw on the reversal frame. You won’t get the reversal message though.

Like in SF4 you can’t throw people who are in block or hitstun. And the throw ranges differ per character. The differing throw ranges affect the gameplay in SF2 more so than in SF4 because in SF2 this means you can actually setup inescapable throws vs certain characters.

Jumps out of an airplane and forgets parachute

For most characters to throw, press f/b+hp… and also… copying and pasting about half of this from the ST wiki because I’m too lazy…

A hold/grab is a type of normal throw that does multiple, and a variable amount of, hits. Examples are: Ken’s Knee-Bash(f/b+mk), Blanka’s Bite(Blanka doesnt have a “throw” f/b+hp or mp), , Dhalsim’s Noogie(f/b+mp), Honda’s Bear-Hug(f+hp, his throw is f+mp but its not as useful as his grab), Boxer’s headbutt(he also does not have a throw b/f+mp or hp) and Zangief’s bites and holds(f+hk, f+hp, df+hp, these can set up an SPD but do not tick into this)

When softening(teching) normal throws, you have a 13 frame window in which to react, and it doesn’t matter which frame you perform a throw command on within that window to get the soften. A throw can be softened on frame one after it has been initiated or on frame ten and the result will be the same (half damage taken, air recovery). Holds however are a different story. The luxury of a 13 frame window to reduce damage is not afforded to a person caught in a hold. From the very first frame you are held every input counts. In order to release you from that hold, and to reduce the damage you take, you have struggle the joystick, and mash buttons, as quickly and as early into the hold as possible.

Not only will you be struggling to escape a hold, but your opponent will also be struggling to increase the number of hits the hold he initiated will do, so both players will be struggling against each other. So what’s the best way to escape, or release yourself from a hold, after you have been grabbed?

When mashing out of holds, the best directional command input is [dn/away, n, up/towards, n, dn/away, etc.]. This is the best command input because the game engine wants you to move through neutral as often as possible. By moving through opposite diagonals the game is registering you as passing through neutral twice. You get credit for moving through neutral vertically, up to down on the joystick, and horizontally, left to right, by wiggling the stick back and forth in opposite diagonals.

A “tick throw” or “tick”(in other words a tap throw) is when the opponent puts you in block stun or hit stun, then throws you immediately afterwards. Some characters have tick throw loops, such as Dhalsim (noogie, Short slide, repeat), and Boxer (throw, walk under cross-up meaty cr.Forward, repeat).

To avoid being tick thrown, you can use a reversal(a perfect tick throw only gives you one frame to get out of it, since throws come out in zero frames…)

After a knockdown, a character has 14 frames(I think thats the correct number) of throw invincibility, therefore you cannot throw a character the exact moment he/she gets back up… however you can do meaty tick(tap whatever the hell you want to call it) and then throw your opponent because 14 frames have passed by the time they are out of block stun. Its only truly useful to do this for characters with grabs or long range throws/command throws…

I hope this does not go over your head… I think this is everything though(well at least mostly everything)… Oh yeah and be aware of mixups after the throws… in SF:2 you can do some pretty devastating shit after them.

r u serious? =\

if you’re not even 100% sure, why would you even post? People here are looking for answers, not maybes.

ok, i think i get it now. it certainly explains a lot of the confusion that i had.

oh and 1 last question: for the tech window, if i hit throw at the same time as theirs will that count? or does the count start on frame 1 so no input on frame 0 would tech?

If both of you threw(well inputted a throw) at the exact same time… it(the game) picks at random who gets the throw there is no tech… that a good enough answer?..

EDIT: A reversal throw(do this by mashing the throw button when expecting a throw) is another way to get out of a tick throw, totally forgot to mention that:sweat:

yep, cleared everything up. i still suck at sf2 but at least i know what to work on ^^

Are you playing ST or HDR… in any case I could teach you basic strats with Ken(well since I’m assuming that is the character you plan on using as a main)… don’t get discouraged… you’ll get better over time, I promise… I was complete ass at this game at one time…

HDR is my flavor of choice. and yeah i’m starting with ken. i like his knee bash mix-ups and his moves are familiar enough to me after playing sf4, although having played 4 i have a lot of habbits that turn out very poorly in sf2 lol.

Well there are no jab-jab links in this game period, light attacks can only chain into light attacks… Ken’s jab dp is really good, crazy invincibility and is pretty close to safe on the block… better players know how to punish it, but even good players cannot punish it consistently(emphasis on that word), so do not be afraid to use it, unlike in sf4…

Ken’s mp dp is fully invincible on the way up but I wouldnt recommend that this gets too much use… Ken’s hp dp is best used from punishing jump-ins from a far distance and it has really quick recovery time(damn near recovers the exact moment he hits the ground) but is still more punishable than jab dp… make sure you use the piano method when using this as a reversal(if you do not piano it is damn near impossible to reversal consistently(dont worry about getting it 100% youre not supposed to, just make sure you get it more often than not, you’ll see a reversal message on screen if successful)… and wakeup games are dangerous in SF:2

Crazy Kicks QCF+K Hold kick button for overhead
His Crazy kicks(the overhead version of them) can be comboed into a sweep if you are close enough… the crazy kick version I would recommend the most for use as an overhead is mk… I never found any real practical use for the non-overhead version of them… the only thing it has managed to accomplish for me is missing a crouching opponent…

Hurricane Kicks
His ground hurricane kicks should not see get too much airtime, it simply isn’t that good imo… that and it misses crouching opponents and is easily punished… they can be used to sail over sonic booms and yoga fire… but wouldn’t recommend using them elsewhere…

However his aerial hurricane kicks are fucking awesome, they can be comboed into sweep and used to set up a knee bash(simply walk up and knee-bash their asses to death after landing the air hurricane kick)… its a damn good mind game(however this is one of the reasons I dont think the knee bash was truly weakened enough)…

Aerial Hurricane Kicks cross up, and it is truly an excellent way to set up a walkup knee bash on the wakeup, or simply cancel it into a sweep if you land it… truly great move… words cannot explain…

It is not as good as Ryu’s but it is pretty damn good… well advice for spacing(I am simply copying and pasting this part from the Ryu section of the ST wiki) and usage…
Ryu’s ideal positioning against most characters is at the very end of their jump arc - this gives him the maximum amount of time to recover from a Hadouken, while still being in range to hit them with a Shoryuken if they try to jump.

The Fireball Trap

Ken’s(well it did say Ryu until I change at least that part lol) famous Fireball Trap is a simple but deadly pattern he can follow on a cornered opponent. After scoring a knock-down on an opponent in the corner, Ken can first position himself at the end of their jump arc, and then throw a lp Hadouken as they are getting up. The lp Hadouken hits meaty, after which Ken can immediately throw a second lp Hadouken, which hits just after the first. Finally, he throws a fp Hadouken just as the second lp Hadouken ends.

If done correctly, the enemy cannot jump out of this pattern. If they try to jump between any of these fireballs, the next fireball will hit them on the way up, they will be knocked down, and the pattern can be begun again. If they decide to jump after the last fireball in the pattern, Ken can use his Shoryuken to knock them out of the sky and back into the corner. Then he can throw a meaty lp Hadouken as they are getting up, and repeat the process all over again.

Back to stuff Hadouken’s I didnt copy and paste
You can cancel sweep into hadouken(you have to input hadouken relatively quick…) and there is NO reason not to do this everytime you manage to tag your opponent with a sweep because it pushes your opponent out of range if he blocks for more fireball madness… huge part of Ken’s footsie game… don’t forget it. Be aware the Guile can punish this with a backfist if you are in a fireball war with him if he’s at the correct range… and yes, he recovers from his Sonic Boom that quickly…

Has quick recovery time something like fierce shoryuken… but I’d only recommend using this as an anti-air… you can also combo this after two crouching short kicks(this is the only thing that breaks the rule of not being able to cancel after chaining two light moves together)… to do this, input QCFx2+Jab~Short(press simultaneously) quickly after the two short kicks… I wouldn’t recommend trying to pull this off since you are just starting but eventually you should incorporate this into your game(hit confirmables man)…

Notable Normals
Crouching MK(Well this is going to be used in most of your BnB combos and its a useful poke but nowhere near as useful as his sweep)

Crouching HK(Sweep)- By far Ken’s most useful moves(check section on Hadoukens), also use this as your opponent is close to landing on the ground from a jump… if it hits you get a knockdown and if your opponent lands in time to block it then cancel the sweep into hadouken(well since you never know whether it will hit or not ALWAYS cancel into hadouken) and push them away…

Standing MP- Use as an antiair measure if you do not have enough time to pull out a dp on reaction, use if opponent is still pretty high in the air…

Jump mk(Ken’s crossup)- Go into training mode and activate hitboxes in the training mode options and practice landing it… crossups are not easy mode like in SF:4(and no not trying to shit on the game… it is what it is…)… Boxer has an awkward hitbox when he blocks… so I wouldn’t recommend trying to him up with this, use the air hurricane kicks instead…

Jump HK- Most of your jump-in combos involve this move right here… that and it has the most range out of his jump-ins… a strategy that seems dumb as hell but is actually viable is Jump HK, Walk-Up Knee Bash… this is bound to piss people off when they fall for it… most people expect a combo after this, so that is why it works so well…

Jump lk- Use this to safe jump((simply hold up around time where knee bash animation ends/since you should be mashing buttons and the joystick in different directions(see section about holds) for more hits)) after a knee bash to tick into another knee bash…

Crossup mk, crouch mp, link into crouch mk, cancel into fierce hadouken
Generally the hadouken does not combo after the crouching mk though… but its a good idea to cancel into it anyway

Aerial Hurricane Kicks, sweep(Always cancel this into hadouken… no reason not to)

Jump HK, crouching mk(or sub this with crouch hk), cancel into hadouken
Ken’s BnB, enough said…

Character Specific Combo i.e only works on Zangief
Crossup mk, crouching mk, cancel into overhead mk juice kick, crouch hk

I think that covers most of everything… others may be able to give you matchup help if you get stuck on a particular match, but this is everything I know lol… Blasts Nujabes

One last thing I forgot to mention, best to hold down crouch hk to avoid negative edging into crazy kicks when trying to cancel into hadouken and use the hk version for air hurricane kick uses mentioned above…

yeah, this i had figured out on my own fairly quickly when my sloppy cr.mk xx fb that worked 100% in sf4 kept coming out as cr.mk xx mk crazy kicks. oh, and it was kinda a system shock to see just how sloppy my dp motions were starting on sf4 only lol. i mean i heard people say it over and over that sf4 was easy mode dp’s, but i thought i didn’t fall into that category because i didn’t ever just mash for dp’s, i allways at least tried to do the motion without the shortcut, and MAN was i wrong lol

deejay can link jabs to medium attacks into specials SF4 style :stuck_out_tongue:

lots of characters can combo supers or specials of off light attacks.

sorry not trying to be a dick :stuck_out_tongue:

This is false. Dictator’s bread and butter combos involve st.lk into either cr.mk or st.rh for example. You can also combo a jumping lp or jumping lk for any character into any strength standing attack. Cammy and Blanka have bread and butter cross-up combos off of their jumping lk attacks.

The combo system in ST (and HDR) is pretty flexible, not as much as GG or VF, but there’s lots to explore.

Ken’s fireball takes priority over his crazy kicks so you shouldn’t have to worry about getting a crazy kick off of a cr.rh when trying to cancel into a fireball. As long as your timing is tight a fireball should come out. Just quicken your execution.

You can cancel jabs into shit with Ken (and Ryu probably but I don’t use him). You just have to renda cancel, like you would with cr short x2 into super. For example you can do cr :lp: :lp: :r::d::df::r::lp::hp: (on Zangief for example)

However there are simpler, more effective combos out there.

OT but do you know this much about Hyper Fighter as well? Ive seen your posts (mainly in the HDR thread) and if so, I have some questions.

Post them in the Hyper Fighting thread and I’ll see what I can answer. It’s been over a decade since I’ve been competitive in HF but I still have a basic understanding of how HF was played (and the major differences between it and ST).