[SF4] Bison: Defeating Jump-Back Kens


#1

Hello.

I was recently playing on Xbox Live with Bison. It was against a Ken who was jumping back constantly; I couldn’t catch him. I slid to him, I dashed to him, and whenever I got close, he mashed light attacks, jumped out of the corner using EX Tatsumaki and kept running. In the event I managed to pin him outside of sweep distance in the corner, he jumped back and hit HK while in the air, then MK on the ground, then began crossing me up (Bison has no anti-air above his head) constantly. I tried teleporting out of the constant crossups with light attacks, but then he started running away again. The match eventually went this way until I got chipped down and lost.

Every time I tried to use HK against him in the corner it traded with his j.HK or it beat mine outright. Either that or he crouched underneath it. Scissor Kicks can’t hit in the air and lost to j.HK. Psycho Crusher is too slow.

I tried to jump MPx2 him but he only jumped towards me to jump over me, and every time he jumped in my direction he did a Tatsumaki or EX Tatsumaki which beat out all of my attacks. I also tried to bait shoryus, but he didn’t do a single one the entire match unless he hit-confirmed me with a MK.

Is there any strategy against players like this? I have a 0% win rate against players that do this.


#2

Do the same exact thing to him. Or just bait his patience. If he sees his play style is not effective I am sure he will change it and might result in doing something unsafe which you can punish. You should also be tick throwing if he is mashing shorts when you get close. Sounds like he basically forced you to play his game and play style.

I don’t really play SF4 all that much but this could be said for all games.


#3

Well the moment I tried to throw him, he jumped and then hit me in my whiff animation; also, hitting LP+LK when someone is jabbing you in the ankles causes a “counter hit” on me.


#4

Kick him to death.


#5

Not to be a dick but you are making it seem like he put up this unbeatable wall of shorts and j.rh that you could not beat.

Why not just scissor kick in between his jabs? Or get him to jump into the corner and head stomp him when he tries to jump out? Sounds like he basically baited you into frustration and you lost your cool so you made bad decisions. It does happen sometimes, but you should regain your composer and punish his play style.

Sorry, just not sure the answer you are looking for.


#6

That kind of style is really scrubby to be honest. I know what you mean when you say its a pain, though. Jumpback normals are pretty good against a lot of chars, but they can’t spam like that. Basically what I would do is follow him to the corner. Dash right up. Bison can clear the entire screen with just a couple of dashes. If you’re getting kinda close, stop dashing and just walk forward. When he’s cornered, their options get worse, but the move is really high priority. If they do it at the beginning of their jump, it will beat your jumpforward HP/HK/ MP. If they do it late, your st. HK will get beat.

Just record Ken doing j.back HK and see how it works. Alternate between jump forward HP/HK and standing HK. Also, people have a recovery from landing. You can let him whiff one jumpback HK in the corner and walk up and poke or throw.’

Oh, and if you get close and hes jumping around, EX headstomp is really good.


#7

I was playing against a Sagat earlier today and his j.HK’s kept trading with my s.HK, but once I started using c.HP (the timing is weird, you have to hit it early) it stopped trading, and I would get the hit.

You’re giving a pretty detailed explanation of what he did so its good that you were able to understand what was going on. I see silly shit like that all the time when I play as Bison.

You also mentioned him spamming light attacks on the ground. To challenge it you have to use your own light attacks. You may feel like youre playing like a bitch only using c.lp and c.lk x 3 but thats the way it goes. Plus even in legit matches those are still legit combos to use. We’re you trying to use c.mk into scissor or something?

Another instance… I played a Balrog earlier and he just turtled, so I started turtling so then he starts taunting. People do dumb shit just to get in your head and then they send you love messages after you end up beating them. Until you know the exact counters, theres nothing wrong using scrub techniques against characters that are scrubby. Otherwise you’re just going to be pissed off that you got beat by a scrub. Beat them to their own game.

If you got into a fist fight with someone on the street then they started fighting dirty, you’re going to fight dirty right back at him. You can’t be like, “Hey, stop that! Don’t fight like a scrub!” yes, i just compared fighting games to real life.

Btw if you want to play me on live hit me up. Bison mirrors are fun.


#8

OH HO. It seemed like the recovery was instant… it seemed very dominant because j.HK has a massive hitbox and the moment he landed I couldn’t even see Ken really land! If there’s recovery I’ll use more kicks.

But yes. The first thing I thought of was EX headstomp. I guess the problem was the moment he saw me move into a down charge, he jumped towards me because I was in jump distance and began the jumping crossup game, or he stopped jumping entirely when I was out of jump distance and started throwing fireballs (but I remember he only threw fireballs when he was full screen, so I couldn’t EX-scissor them).

He seemed scrubby, but he won twice. Now that I am more aware, I’d like to see if I could capture a video of a match with one next time.


#9

Oh no worries! I know that some strategies, even if they look silly, are legitimate if they work. It’s just that I wasn’t accustomed to a strategy that I couldn’t beat. I don’t think Sagat’s j.HK is nearly as bad as Ken’s because Ken’s j.HK stays active for a really long time.

Do you think that if I whack the LP and LK buttons while he is attacking me and crossing me up they will beat him? I tried all sorts of things, standing short and stuff, but it usually traded and then he jumped away. What I was really trying to do was catch his jumps and lands with a standing roundhouse. Then I tried to bait jumps with Devil’s Reverse but it usually whiffed or it was just blocked. EX Headstomp full-screen out of his jump distance doesn’t travel quite fast enough to punish a fireball throw; sometimes it did, sometimes it didn’t.

I guess the worst part about it was that when I got a life lead and tried to stay back a bit, he jumped at me with HK and I tried to anti-air him with my own, but it usually traded. And after a trade with HKs in the air, Ken is closer to Bison than before so his second jump usually put him above my head where I couldn’t really do anything. Maybe I should’ve teleported the entire match while he jumped, but I’ve been punished by quarter-screen sweeps before when teleporting around jumpers.

Also I agree that Bison mirror matches are fun because they are all about who can scare the other guy mentally first. I think I’ll take a break from Live though, I’ve been losing really badly the past week.


#10

Well if you get crossed up you just have to block it out and try to figure out your opponents pattern because if you keep blocking hes just going to throw you. Plus, I don’t think you want to mash c.lp right away because you’re probably still in block stun for a significant amount of time so that he’ll be able to hit you again right after that blocked cross up. While you’re blocking he’s leading the show so after that first c.lp or c.lk that he gives you after the cross up, it’l either still be a block string or he’ll go right into a throw.

On the jump ins, be sure to give that c. hp a shot because I never traded with Sagat’s j.HK again.

These reasons are why its good to be on the offensive, especially with Dic. Thats what I’m learning with him right now.

Also, I just figured this out, but if you’ve been losing a lot, play some noobs because it’l help you get your confidence back and will make u feel comfortable again so you can try out shit that you learned from BS matches. It’s all learning.

I’m really going through the same bullshit as you as of late. I’ve used Guile, then Sagat, and now I play Bison and it feels like I’ve never played so many aggressive opponents as I have until now.


#11

I remember reading a wise motivational poster on Counter Strike back in the day regarding camping but is also interchangeable with turtling.
-:china:Do unto others as others would do unto you:china:
-This works well especially when you have a life lead and your opponent (usually scrubby ones) begins to turtle. Once they see that their turtling is not doing anything and they have a life disadvantage, they’re going to get desperate and try to get some damage in. Take advantage of their attempts to approach you and bait stupidity.
-If you’re charging downwards and he begins to j. hk you, you can actually use c.hp, since your hitbox will extend behind them and you’ll punch 'em in the ass. Try practicing that first because there’s specific timing to it.
-EX PC actually works as a decent anti-air in some situations, especially if they’re jumping towards you.
-Also, knowing how crossups work and how to defend against them will help alot .


#12

He was 1992 stylin’ on you.

I am failing to see the point of this thread anymore. And why were you not punishing his fireballs with head stomps? Are you drunk?


#13

Did you forget the rules of this forum or did you just forget you were replying in the noob area?


#14

Calm down bro, this is the newbie area. This is meant to make new players feel welcome, not excluded.


#15

Bison has scissor kicks that are safe on block… So just scissor and block tech throw and repeat. Otherwise find your spacing and just use his standing roundhouse.


#16

Walk forward steadily and do a ‘metallic kick to the balls’. Bison’s got drugs to sell and villages to burn. He ain’t got time for that scruby turtling stuff.

BTW, don’t use scissors to punish jump back kens. Ken will beat the sk everytime and can punish you hard.


#17

Hey man, what’s up? When I first started playing SF4 I had no prior Bison experience and my initial online matchup experiences were all jumping Ryu’s and jumping Ken’s. 10 months down the road, there are still a few scrubby Ken’s that get lucky on some rounds because of jump ins and lag issues online. Don’t get frustrated, be patient. If they wish to jump back and retreat to the edge of the stages, be their guest and walk them to it; go forward and surrender your charge for a few seconds. They will have to find a way to get back behind you to reach the other end. This is where you make your stand.

Chances are that if they’re jumping back, they’re not tossing too many fireballs out and they’re waiting for a reaction. I love matches like these nowadays because the clock runs by pretty fast and sooner or later one of you will start to panic due to health advantage and a ticking timer. A lot of Ken’s love the deep jump roundhouses, if you want to go air-to-air leap and hit fierce or roundhouse instantly so you can try to score a counter hit while they’re jumping for the kicks. Swatting them out of mid-air with standing roundhouse takes some practice. because it does come out fast, you may or may not hit it too early (they counter hit you) or too late (trade) while they jump onto you. A good sweet spot is to get close enough to swat them during their start of the jumps also. Sooner or later these Ken’s will be trained to stop doing jump back roundhouses and learn to actually play and mix you up.

I have spent a lot of time in training mode with SF4 PC and tried to figure out where some of the hitboxes are modeled around. Here’s an estimate guess at the standing Roundhouse hitbox. Try to keep this image in mind when you’re attacking and stand far enough to not get hit and not close enough to be traded. Bison is a fun and unorthodox character. It’s all mind and games. He has no projectiles to make people jump or zone but he has long range kicks that go horizontal and diagonal.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4148/shkz.jpg

Best of luck in your Bison playing!


#18

Sorry to go off topic but since you mentioned hit boxes, is there any potential rumor that they might put them in training mode in ssf4?


#19

I have never seen anybody imply this no. It’s something I’ve seen a lot of people ask for it, and they have said they’re looking at what people are asking for, but I’ve never seen it mention in an interview or Q&A, and I’ve never seen anybody with supposed inside knowledge claim that it’s in.


#20

I’m not a Bison player myself, but could you head stomp him? If he’s jumping predictably you may be able to stomp him as he gears up for the next jump. If you caught him a few times, he’d probably stop doing it. Maybe an ex to catch him if it’s too slow.