SF4 Dash Gouken fixes

gouken

#1

First of all, I wanna say that I like how Gouken is so far, and have been blaming my losses on either other players skill or my errors. Still, since Capcom claims to be reading the forums, etc. I think we should have one of these threads.

So Heres what Id like:

  • TKD air tatsumaki and less recovery for it.
  • tatsumaki out of demon flip so we can have something to nail people jumping out of the resets and also a reliable getaway move.
  • better hitbox for the tatsumaki maybe? Hitting crouching enemies on combos, or maybe cr. mk and cr. HP making them stand like ryus cr. HP.
  • maybe a demon flip punch like Goukis?

#2

Give him a real shoryuken, that would fix every problem I’ve ever encountered that I couldn’t stop while using Gouken. Forget the counter, just give me a shoryu.


#3

He needs some decent links, and ditto on Tatsu recovery.

It wouldn’t hurt to have Gouken be able to mix and match normals and end with a Fireball or Tatsu in the variety that Ryu, Ken, and Akuma can.


#4

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#5

No ones begging, its just that everyone knows SF4 Dash is coming sooner or later, we all know that. Since capcom claims to be reading we all might just as well leave a few ideas. I dont think Gouken needs any change at this point, I just want to see if we can make any difference :smiley:

Back to the topic:

  • Instant recovery for air parry in case it actually blocks something(increased in case it doesnt?).

#6

being able to cancel or link into tatsu after two or three chained jabs. then you could fadc into his ultra all from a jab.


#7

I don’t know about giving him an SRK. I actually like how he DOESN’T have one but when he DOES do one, its the absolute mother of all dragon punches. That said, fair changes I’d like to see added:

  • 3 frame jab, 3 frame light kick

This will go a long way towards helping us when we are constantly being pressured and molested by those who exploit our completely vacant wake-up game. It will also go a long way towards fending off the brazen throw attempts that people can do on Gouken. I don’t know of any other character who suffers from walk-up and wake-up throw abuse as much as Gouken. I feel this frame change will also double as some semblance of a hit confirm which will deal with our “all or nothing” approach to combos.

  • Better recovery on aerial tatsu

  • Jumping middle punch juggles properly and not just the second hit on it’s own. Allowing an Ultra tag ala Ryu’s j.mp albeit with substantial scaling for balancing.

  • More range on the crouching middle kick. However, given the effectiveness of c.fp as an anti-air, I’m wondering if c.mk could perhaps revert to the animation of c.lk thus giving us a traditional c.mk poke that we can combo a fireball or lp palm into.

  • Dive kick does chip damage like Akuma.

  • Grounded Tatsumaki. Probably my biggest ‘problem.’ I feel its fine for a blocked or whiffed special to leave one vulnerable, but in Gouken’s case its patently ridiculous. I’d like to see ALL versions of the tatsu on the ground begin with the usual high kick that is changed to start in three frames ala the dragon punch and ALSO hit crouchers. This gives us a wake-up option we can FADC out-of but doesn’t give us an SRK.

Third change is this: If blocked, Gouken does NOT leave the ground. Instead, he simply does a big roundhouse kick (the first hit of the tatsu) that spins around akin to Sagat’s standing roundhouse but also invokes frames of vulnerability so we can be punished fairly. We don’t leave the ground, we just kinda spin around from the first standing roundhouse that would otherwise lift us (and our opponent) into the air.

  • f.mp (overhead) is a double hitting move.

  • Demon flip parry lands just slightly faster after absorption. Currently it works ok, though it would be a really solid option if we landed just a little bit faster. A lot of the time or best option is to throw.

  • Neutral jump roundhouse has a little more range and hits a little lower. The hitbox is currently angled a little weirdly.

  • Lastly, EX counter recovers faster on whiff.

I think these are somewhat fair. The biggest change obviously being to the grounded tatsu - hits low, starts faster, when blocked doesn’t go into the air but leaves us vulnerable still. But small changes (jabs!) will elevate Gouken in a modest way and help us fend off a lot of the areas where he is otherwise exploited - namely by walk-up and wake-up throws. I think that c.mk change would also be a nice addition to his poking game.

Thoughts?


#8

I agree with almost everything Gamogo said except the, it should leave the ground if wiffed, but it also should hit crouched opponents.


#9

wouldnt that make him too much like a shoto? I dont think Id like that.


#10

goukens future

I like the fact that he’s not a ordinary shoto thats what makes him the beast he is. What would be cool is if they would let more combos with start off lt jabs and lt kicks to help link like gamago said .What else would be cool is how they did with they fireballs with them going in 3 diffrent angles they do with his tatsu giving him the regular shotos tatsu {horizontal} but also letting hime keep his verticle one letting the horizontal ex cancel into the verticle one t. I would love to see that coming out the end of a combo:rofl::rofl:


#11

I don’t think that’d make him too shoto-esque. The three frame, low hitting start-up invokes a viable reversal for wake-up pressure and we are STILL vulnerable if the whole things whiffs , albeit we simply don’t go sailing up into the air. I wouldn’t suggest giving it the invulnerability and priority of an SRK, just those start-up and low hitting benefits.

Alternatively: perhaps break it down to one or the other:

a.) Grounded tatsu starts in three frames and hits low. Otherwise unchanged.

b.) Grounded tatsu remains the same albeit when blocked, he remains grounded but somewhat vulnerable.

I think the key point is allowing tatsu to hit low to give us at least SOME wake-up threat. I considered perhaps suggesting that only EX tatsu hits low, but then to FADC out we’d need to gobble up THREE EX stocks which is just plain ridiculous.

OR - perhaps have the three frame + low hitting options applicable ONLY to LIGHT KICK grounded tatsu. This is fair. This gives us:

  • A go to wake-up option we can fadc out of
  • Fast start-up to make it a somewhat viable anti-air despite it having quite a small range
  • Its the lk version, so its not over-powered at all and some hits can whiff, although we’d likely nab that first hit at least anyway

The idea is not so much to render it as our go-to anti-air option, but moreso a wake-up threat. Its the lack of a wake-up threat that makes Gouken the only character you freely walk up to and just plain throw again and again. Combine that with his sluggish jabs and light kicks and he’s quite easily vacuumed in time and time again even when we try to stave off cheeky throw attempts with jabs. I personally revert to neutral jumps, back dashes and EX flips though these options are all somewhat fickle and laden with gambles.

Noone’s smashing out reversal SRKs on wake-up all the time. Few people do. But the mere THREAT of wake-up SRKs (or flash kicks, teleports, ex scissors, etc) being an option is what prevents the rest of the cast being molested to the degree Gouken is on wake-up. If Gouken suddenly had a reversal wake-up lk tatsu that hit low that we could smash out, you bet your ass they’d perhaps hold off being so ballsy. We can also FADC out if we are baited which would go a long way towards making Gouken so much more viable.

Thoughts?


#12

ok i had been thinking about this for some time now and i have a few things that i would like to see changed and i would be happy. Like Gamogo said goukens current jab and lk frame rate is horrid, changing it to 3 frames would help tremendously with his game. Goukens tatsu, while i COMPLETELY agree that this move should be hitting low and starting faster, i do not agree that gouken shouldnt be leaving the ground. i am fine with him taking to the air, and plus it has its uses going up and if its hitting low he can reliably fadc out of it if its blocked like the ryu does. another thing, the recovery from the air parry. too many times i have parried something in the air, land and then am still punished. Its ok if the recovery stays the same if he parries nothing, but when he does a successful air parry, gouken should not still be able to get punished, that’s just ridiculous. i also agree that his recovery from the air tatsu could be shortened a bit. The other shotos have pretty decent recovery why not gouken? i disagree with his c.mk being changed to be like the shotos, i do feel though that they could just change his c.mp to actually link like the c.mk does with the shotos. it currently doesnt and that sucks. lastly, in general, gouken just needs more links. His current links are non-hit confirmable thus making them undesirable. It would be nice to be able to link some jabs into a c.mp, c.mk, maybe a c.fp or being able to do c.lp, c.lp. light tatsu, fadc ultra would be nice. Just something to making him a little more combo friendly really. Currently having to start all his combos with fp is a little hard and it just sucks when all you can do when you land a jab is do 2 more then a couple shorts and thats it. those are the changes i feel he could use and i dont think they are too outrages. all of them would be nice but if capcom just changed the frame rate of the jabs/shorts and made his tatsu start faster and hit low, i would be happy.

Edit

I just re-read gamogos post, and idk why it didnt click in my head that gouken doesnt leave the air if its blocked. Im ok with that and like it, but if swings at air he goes up or if it hits he goes up. Also, not a ridiculous request, maybe a controllable ex demon flip with it being auto tracking if you dont hit a button, he hell just controllable. that would be so nice on wake-up.


#13

^ Actually that wouldn’t be too bad of an idea. Similar to how you can steer Bison’s Devil’s Reverse and Vega’s wall dive, I think it would be nice if the EX Demon Flip allowed you to use the directional input to adjust how close or how far you want him to go, and as Killakelly said, auto-track the opponent if you press nothing. Taking the existing Gouken into consideration, I think it would come in handy as it would give him an escape move that is much more reliable.


#14

Gouken’s real problem is viable options on wake-up.
Local Gouken recently asked me to help him as i’m the local best player on how he could work on his Gouken to make him more viable so I picked him up for 2 weeks or so and came to some realizations pretty quickly.

Outside of the corner Gouken has 0 non-gimmick upclose options.
-After any move is blocked if the opponent has a 3 frame jab and just mashes it will interrupt any of goukens follow-ups after a blocked move (except for a kara-grab after st. MP).
-Gouken’s crossup is lamely predictable and the only ambiguous crossups he has are using j. LK which won’t combo into anything except his jab chain (very lame as it doesn’t knock down).

  • Gouken’s Demonflip Focus is worthless against any good player as on wake-up reversals break it and non-reversaled someone can jump activate it and punish the recovery on landing with a big combo. (recovery when counter activates? lame)
    -Gouken’s Demonflip kick outside of the corner simply has no application as it doesn’t have the insane block advantage of akuma’s and is near impossible outside of the corner to consistantly hit crossups with it. Now some matchups it beats reversals or causes them to whiff (MK and RH versions) but the fact is if the person just holds back you’ll whiff and suffer right before you land often enough this isn’t good to go for.
  • ON COUNTERHIT his fireball still doesn’t combo 100% which is just a tad bit ridiculous imo and make it useless outside of ther corner.
    In effect Gouken needs the corner to have options but lacks the options to get opponents to the corner
    Solutions
  1. Fix Gouken’s frames. Gouken is odd as he is negative or even generally on block but almost always + on hit which is kinda’ve funny imo. I’d like to see his close versioned normals sped up and more advantage on block so he can have viable options to trick his opponent after a knockdown into his dmg.
    Specific changes
    close medium punch 4 frames startup +3 advantage on block or hit
    cr. Jab 4 frame startup +2 advantage on block +3 advantage on hit (k if they are standing you can 1 frame link into hurricane kick good for you)
    cr. MP 4 frame startup same frames as now
    cr. LK 5 frame Startup (not 6) more canceling frames (currently it combo’s into RH Tatsu on standing from all distances just hit confirming standing is hard from small number of cancelling frames.
    close fierce punch 5 frame startup +1 on block +3 on hit
    Fireball couple less startup frames so it combo’s from counter hit consistantly and a reactive anti-air fireball is easier when people jump randomly when you are just standing their.

2.Counter changes. I hate how his counters are tied to the limitations of the focus system.

  • Make his counters regenerate life quicker than normal focus
    -Make reversals not break his counters (armor breaking moves still do, so naturally reversal armor breaking move would still break it though)
  • Instant recovery from air-parry if activated
  1. I’d like to see the hit box on his dash punches extended so the range where they are safe from non-supers is a bit larger.
  2. Possibly a chain into sweep … I was thinking his sweep could be cancelled to from his jabs and lower the damage to like 70 or so. Gives him good amount of reward and about 150+ dmg combo into knockdown. Really he just needs a low dmg way from jabs to knockdown but other than this i couldn’t think of a good option.
  3. More reasonable recovery on Hurricanes. -109 come on …
  4. Slightly wider divekick hit box.

Gouken’s weak defensive option are fine imo and should be made up for with a strong offense. He is close to having this and really just needs the changes mentioned above along with the additional rewards to his risky defensive game to make him a strong competitor.

As to Gouken needing better anti-air options. He doesn’t need better options to someone jumping over a fireball. His fireball recovery is very good and anyone who claims so needs to go play ryu or sagat and tell me otherwise, while he has fewer fireball tricks better frames would add alot to his current corner game and with a larger safe dash punch he’d have some nasty frame trap tricks. Faster fireball means reactive fireballing people that jump randomly into a dashpunch so that’s 230 damage or you can FADC it to ultra like other characters if they are closer. For when they jump a fireball you have st. MK,cr. FP, and EX tatsu if they are really close (works consistently for me but I’m good with recognizing correct ranges, people it doesn’t work for i think are doing it to early so the second hit whiffs. Try practice mode and doing a dp with ryu to get max damage and it’s about that same timing for gouken’s EX hurricane.)

Gouken doesn’t need links if you give him viable links and what not he needs lower damage. I would just like him to have better ways of tricking people, Counterhit specific combo’s, and longer cancelling frames so while his combo’s would still be simple they would need to be hit confirmed for maximum damage. Gouken is very interesting but just seems unfinished and it is very obvious capcom didn’t want him to be broken.


#15

I think either his offense should be improved or his defense, but not both. I would like one of the three, and only one of the three.

  1. Tatsu hits crouching opponents.

  2. 3 frame jabs that are able to link into bigger combos (but not EX Palm because that would probably be too good).

  3. Demon flip parry not broken by wakeup reverals. This would be great for mindgames after a knockdown.


#16

I agree with this. I’ve mained him since day one and he is extremely unique. Moving onto Akuma as a ‘serious’ alt. has illustrated many of Gouken’s pros and cons to me quite clearly.

I agree that Capcom were mindful not make him broken but this has come at considerable expense to the point where I feel he is actually under-developed in many ways which has stunted him considerably.

Oddly, as Gouken players, we’ve all been forced to work with these serious limitations and we all still do quite well with him I think. My Gouken tangos quite well against skilled players though I feel I am missing out on many facets of the game that other characters enjoy by default.

Gouken wouldn’t take a great deal to be tweaked within reason to become a great character and I honestly expect we will see some interesting changes come our way in the next version of SFIV for sure.

Will Capcom pay attention to what we are saying here? Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, I think now that the game has been out for so long that Gouken’s flaws ought to be quite obvious. My biggest concern is the fact that we Gouken players are very rare thus we have a somewhat quiet voice in the grand scheme of things. Consider the fact that everyone is aware of say Sagat’s overpowered factors and ridiculously simple Ultra setups. Everyone knows about Fei Long’s poor Ultra and its common-place whiffing/failing instances. But Gouken is rarely spoken of and a lot of the common response is “Oh, just give him an SRK” which reflects in some ways a failure to respect what makes Gouken so unique and better understand the key fundamentals that are limiting his game.

Yes, a SRK would address a lot, if not MANY of our problems but it would also detract from what makes him unique. I think there are better ways to address his problems that would also maintain what makes him so unique as is evident in many of the suggestions in this thread.

For now though I think we’re all working well with the tools we have. Anything additional or beneficial that Gouken potentially gains in future revisions will only help us represent the old boy even stronger. Here’s hoping!


#17

To be honest if they tweak w/ his frames(in a good way) I’ll be more than happy w/ Gouken.

And let’s not forget if this is going to be another iteration of SF IV theres a possibility for new moves.
Personally I’d like to see Gouken have either a grab ultra(kinda like Akuma) or a super that involves hadou. Or something completely new I just think it’d be neat if they throw some new stuff in.


#18

Part of what made me decide to main Gouken is that while he IS the the Shoto master of Ryu and Ken, and brother of Akuma, his fighting style significantly differs from all three, which IMO, makes him stand out from the rest of his Shoto counterparts because he breaks away from the traditional mold.

That said, sometimes I also find it discouraging to see how little Goukens I encounter on PC and PSN. I understand if they have other character preferences, but some people act as if they’ve never fought a Gouken before. My friend who mains Ryu keeps telling me that I’m the best Gouken he’s ever fought and I tell him, “Dude, that can’t be right because I’m not that good, and there has to be far better Goukens out there than me.”

I’m sure that if they ever decide to fix up some of Gouken’s short-comings in subsequent updates, he’ll start to get more attention from the community. Until then, I’m still not giving up on this guy just yet. I’ve been switching between Akuma and Gouken and have debated whether I should make Akuma my main and Gouken my secondary (Because arcades don’t have Gouken) but I think I’m going to stick it out with the old man just a little longer. I think we just have to keep representing this guy until he gets the attention he deserves as a worthy contender among the more popular cast members.


#19

That pretty much describes how I feel about Gouken. Nice to see Im not alone.

Also, on that get up thing, wouldnt demon flip into tatsu make a pretty decent wake up/get away move?

Id change recovery frames on tatsu(that no flying thing is good) and make it hit low, at least on the ex version. That would change gouken a LOT already, I think its speed is ok.

Weve all talked about defense all right, but what about offense? Nothing you people would like to change?

Before anyone says it, changing cr. mp to make it link into hadouken: How do you guys feel about it? Wouldnt the frame advantage it gives make it a little cheap?


#20
  1. 3 frame jab
  2. standing EX-tatsu hit mid or all standing tatsu hit mid
  3. less cooldown on all tatsu, especially air tatsu and lk standing tatsu
  4. a useable hit confirm link into hado (close mp, c.lp is not usable). i think a link into tatsu fadc ultra may be too strong.
  5. backthrow work like a normal throw or at least just have a 3 frame startup