SF4 Meter Theory: Super meter does not carry over each round


#1

I was having a discussion with a friend awhile back and while I don’t remember everything that was said one thing that we hit on that we really ended up liking was the idea of Super meter resetting every round.

I know that this is a controversial idea and that it would fundamentally change the way the game is played but I find the idea extremely intriguing nonetheless. The idea sprang up originally in the context of Super Turbo where super does not carry over and you either use it or lose it. Something simple as that seemed to make the game more offensive on it’s own since you knew you’d be back at square one the next match.

In the world of SF4 this would mean that players would be forced to rely on their normals, techs, zoning and footsies more since meter would be even harder to come by. I ended up posting this as one of things I wanted changed for the rebalance of AE but it is clear that this is a topic all on it’s own. I have however picked a couple of good quotes from the other thread to get the conversation going.

I am just interested in what people think. There is no way in hell Capcom would implement such a radical and drastic change to the series at this point. So calm down before you get angry and explain what you think about have the *Super Meter reset every round, just like the Ultra meter does. *


-This way people will fight instead of whiffing moves for meter if they think they are going to lose.

***Gojeran said: ***
*"Then change the game! I think having meter transfer over from round to round makes some of the awesome balls to the walls plays of older sf games like ST impossible because its a better practice in its current form to run away and try to build meter rather than trying to win. This change in and of itself would make the game more offensive than any character specific fixes anybody is suggesting. If meter doesn’t carry over it forces you to try to win the match! and isn’t that the point?

Mix it up! Make super meter 3 bars and increase overall meter gain for all characters on block strings and decrease meter gain for wiffed specials. FADC would still cost 2 bars so there is less DP FADC get out of jail free cards. Also with only 3 bars and overall higher meter gain supers become more viable. I know its crazy talk but so what.

Think about it! Meter moving from one round to another makes the game more of a “slippery slope” which makes the hated “come back mechanics” more needed to make it fair. For example say an Akuma is fighting against Guile and in round 1 Akuma just takes it to Guile and doesn’t use much meter. Meanwhile, Guile is burning meter like crazy trying to stay alive. Guile loses the round anyways or runs away and tries to build meter giving up one the round and making for more downback fighter 4. Now round 2 begins and Akuma is sitting on 2.5-3 bars and Guile has next to none… NOT GOOD, Guile is more or less screwed! Akuma runs away with round 2 as expected. If meter did not carry over the situation would be reset and Guile would have a fighting chance in round 2 without needing to land some kind of ultra “come back mechanic” to stay in it. Just saying…"*

***Sosage said: ***
*For one, meter filled quickly in ST for most characters. Some filled meter insanely fast just by doing things they are supposed to be doing (Boxer especially). For two, people still developed strats for staying back and building meter anyways.

Super meter in IV does not revolve around just being a set up for a comeback mechanic (your real culprit is Ultra, obviously…if that carried over, then things would be very retarded). You need that meter for EX and FADC…two incredibly important portions of the IV game. Landing super is your cake for earning that meter and holding onto it without utilizing EX or FADC.

In the Akuma vs. Guile scenario, a lot of things are going unsaid. Why should the Akuma player lose his earned meter because YOU didn’t stop him? If you’re at the point in round 1 where it is obvious you’re not pulling out, why aren’t YOU doing things to build meter or to stop HIM from building more than he’d earn finishing you off?

I realize this is shit that won’t wind up changed (thank God), but I think people not wanting meter to carry over have a larger problem with their own meter management. Especially the part of the game where you need to spot that you’re going to lose round 1 in the next ten seconds and weighing the need to build meter…and possibly push forward to stop the opponent from gaining more. I love it. It’s a small chunk of strategy that adds to every game.*

So, we clearly have both sides of the debate up and running. What do you guys think?


#2

It is an interesting premise but it would make characters who build meter safely or quickly significantly stronger than those that don’t. Characters like Yun/Yang/Akuma/Sagat would benefit from this, while characters like Honda would suffer from it greatly.


#3

Some people would do a less damaging combo just to have full meter at the start of the next around. That’s the only difference I would see. I often waste meter for more damage whenever possible, most would probably save it for a random uppercut cancel.

V
The first sentence is as is, if meter were to reset it would be the opposite. That’s all. Would also remove the point of having ultras.


#4

Umm… doing less damaging combo just to have full meter? The suggestion he is making is that you start with ZERO meter each round. I’m not sure if you misread or misunderstood him.


#5

I’ve thought about this before and I’m conflicted.

On one hand, it adds a level of strategy to the game where you have to think “hm, I can blow this meter right now, but I might need it the next round.” EX moves and FADC are just too damn good for a player who who knows he’s about to lose to be able to start throwing them out because his meter is going to be gone the next round anyway. FADC can save your life no matter what. However, you should feel the sting of regret when you burnt two bars for naught.

On the other hand, I think the point of a best-of-three system where each round resets both players is so that each round is its own thing. Both players should start on the same level and the victor determined by skill, not circumstances from the get-go. You just don’t get that when it’s round 3 and one guy has four bars and the other has none. The first round is the only round that’s ever on perfectly even ground. A little bit of meter can be a game-changer.

It is what it is. Theoretically, I don’t think meter should transfer round-to-round in such a competitive environment but Street Fighter IV is an exception. A smart player will know when burning meter can give them the round back, or when it’s time to plan for the future.


#6

hell no. The end of every round would be people blowing through their remaining meter with ex moves, rather than considering whether to risk it, or save it for next round. Characters that build super fast would suddenly become wrecking balls at the end of a round (ie Bison).

It wouldn’t add strategy to Street Fighter, it would take it away


#7

You would have to re-tweak the entire game to work around such a change, I like the fact that meter carries over simply because its another variable to consider and it allows flexibility in the way you play. In the current climate, you can play offensively, using meter all over the place or you can sit back and be more conservative with your meter. If they implemented your desired change it would force everyone to play more offensively, and while I prefer watching such play, that doesn’t necessarily make it better as a fighting game. Plus characters like dhalsim would suffer severly, while yun and yang would be an even bigger problem(since they can build a full bar in one round).

I don’t see this adding any extra depth to the game, it would actually reduce the amount of strategy involved, why hold back on my ex messiah kicks when I know Im gonna lose it all next round. Plus the fact that it carries over also gives people something to work towards in a round they have obviously lost. I just don’t see how this is a good idea at all really, its not like AE is excessively defensive or something so I really don’t see why we should add a feature that makes the game even more skewed towards one playstyle.


#8

I totally agree which is why if a system like this were ever implemented Meter gain would have to be re-balanced.

It would be nice to start around against Yun where he doesn’t have Geni-Jin at the ready the entire match.


#9

I especially like the bold statement there. And I agree. But I also agree with the Underlined statement as well.

I wonder about times where the tier chart favors a certain match-up lets say that match is 7-3 (or worse) I am thinking something like Bison Vs Guile or Yun vs Dalsim. In a situation like this, the game is already going to favor one character over another but if the character with the advantage ALSO has meter then their advantage gets even bigger.

But if meter were to reset in these situations it might help out Bison in the Guile match-up, or Sim in the Yun match-up (well not really because I don’t think there is anything Sim can do to Yun but I was looking for another bad match-up)


#10

They’d have to make characters like Honda / Guile build more metre then they do now. Otherwise there would be no reason not to take a character like Yun / Sagat.


#11

Yes, meter gain rates would have to be adjusted in order for this to work. Some characters barely build meter while others get it for just existing more or less.


#12

This is true. I suppose the game would have to be re-worked from the ground up.


#13

He has Genei-jin ready from the start of the match because of the choices both of you made last round. Deal with it. The last thing SF4 needs is to remove even more consequences for your actions by taking away the reward for managing your meter correctly and encouraging mashing even more. It also means that players’ options at the early parts of each round are more limited due to never having meter; this includes removing literally all of the the defensive options of a lot of characters who rely on EX moves.

It might be an interesting idea to think about, but all it does is remove interesting decisions from the game in favour of making SF4 even more a game of “Just Do It.”


#14

maybe just do it is better than just turtle on it?


#15

No. For 1, it isn’t better. For 2, meter carrying over/management/building is not a simple enough situation to just be called turtling. This is coming down to who wants a system that lets you be a little bit more mentally lazy.


#16

On the one hand yes there would be less to think about overall since meter management wouldn’t factor into the games between rounds. But on the other I feel as if players would have to learn to rely less on their EX moves and supers and focus more on their normals. I’ve always enjoyed playing that aspect of SF since WW.


#17

http://sonichurricane.com/?p=263

“Super SF2 Turbo – Even after fifteen years, ST remains widely supported in the tournament scene. It introduced super moves and throw softening to Street Fighter, along with countless new bells and whistles such as overheads and juggle combos. No advantages transfer from round to round because super meter levels do not carry over. The established top tier contains at least five characters: Dhalsim, O.Sagat, Vega, Balrog, and Ryu – with Bison, Chun Li, and Dee Jay also making strong showings.”

I quote this here because of it’s relevance to the discussion about meter.


#18

Ultimately this just makes chars that are more meter dependant worse and those who are less so better. While changing around the numbers would make things pretty dynamic its just too much for too little. Also the ST thing is pretty irrelevant since meter there could only be used for the super anyway. Its much more integrated in the average game of SF4.

TL;DR: your icon is kwel


#19

lol


#20

I wouldnt like this idea at all. Meter management really adds another level to the game.