SFA3 Top Tiers: Online vs Offline

How does Chun Stomp beat Gief? Everytime she jumps, she is risking jumping into Gief jumping HP, jump back splash, or jumping into an outstretched cr.HP. What is the distance the Stomp works, because it has been eaten up alive by cr. KKK Lairat everytime I’ve tried. Also, Chun’s cross up is eaten up alive by Lairat too. If Chun crosses up early, the her cross up LK will hit, but all her follow ups will be eaten by Lairat when she lands because Lairat comes out quicker than any of her normals. If she’s crossing up late, Lairat still beats her while she’s still falling. There’s no timing in anti-airing her with Lairat.

Meaty HP --> cr.HK doesn’t work too well on Zangeif because he has 2 viable counters:

  1. wake up SPD
  2. Lairat

Maybe option 1 might be effected by lag, but I’ve seen you do it many times clean. Lairat doesn’t even have to be timed beat out meaty HP. Lairat even eats cr.HK from a distance and up close, cr.HK goes through it.

Chun can’t stop body splash online. standing HP will beat it only at a specific distance, the one where Gief can easily mix it up with jump regular HP or empty jump SPD. One bad guess, and she dies. One right guess, and at best, you just took away 7-8% of Gief’s life, and he’s still barrelling on top of her. And if Gief ever gets to cross her up with splash, it’s all over for her. She can’t even walk under fast enough because crossup splash hitbox is so large. I think Gief already kills her badly offline; online, it’s pretty much a free win for him.

What is stomp --> cross up? The only person I’ve seen able to do it was someone named “AAAAAAAAA” (later changed his name to Osoto Gari). But it seemed he could only do it with X-Chun, not A-Chun. His X-Chun would stomp, then instead of bouncing away after ths stomp hits/blocked; he continued to decend and do jumping LK cross up. If this is what you mean kills Gief, how it is done? Everytime I’ve tried online or off; Chun bounces away too far, whether I stomp on the ascending part of her jump, or the descending part of her jump.

SHit yeah, nice rankings. I haven’t really played this game online OR offline much to be honest, but from what ive played online you have such ltitle time to react to Gen/chun crossups and fast jumps like blankas online its crazy. when your char has sensitive anti air techniques, they basically get to do whatever they want :tdown:

Yeah, O Soto is who im referring to. That is EXACTLY what im takling about, and like you, i can’t reproduce it even though that attack series is in like every SF game even in ST and 3s. The thing about Chun Li is that she’s a short character. If some scrub is mashing lariat after getting hit by any jumpins (something I have a bad habit of doing) you can just wait and sweep him.

Chun has no worries at all about doing meaty shit on Gief. Especially with lag. Gief does have to commit to the lariat early just like every other lagged anti-air so he can’t reversal a meaty hp (done early enough) on reaction, but you can always bait by standing over him and then jumping away at the last second.

Chun’s eternal anti-air (cr. rh) stops j. fierce and splash at anything less than max range. Even better you can use jump up rh just like in ST to stop the repeated cross upsplash whoring, though I doubt thats an easy alternative. I’ve never been able to maintain repeated splash crossup on any good chuns as i end up getting air thrown or j. back wk/shorted.

Gief still wins the match, i’m not disputing that, but online Chun has a few good tricks that help the match on Kal settings

How is the lag on Kailera vs. Xbox live lag??

Ah, I just realized why I couldn’t do it with just a few minutes of testing. That stomp --> cross up is only possible with X-Chun; hence the reason O Soto Gari only plays X-Chun rather than A-Chun. The stomp has a MUCH bigger hitbox in X-ISM than in A.

To comfirm, I tested X-Chun vs. A-Gief; and A-Chun vs. A-Gief. I made both Chuns stand at point blank range next to Zangief, then jump straight up and come down with stomp. A-Chun’s stomp whiffs completely while X-Chun’s stomp will hit. Furthermore, X-Chun’s stomp bounces her much lower than A-Chun, setting up for the crossup, while A-Chun’s stomp will always bounce her too high for the cross up to land. So since that stomp–>crossup is X-Chun only, that means only X-Chun does slightly better than A-Chun vs. Gief; and then, specifically only A-Gief. V-Gief still has VCs, which X-anything will die to.

Chun’s cross up LK, standing HP is for some reason, much harder to time on Gief. I just tested it out and it was very inconsistent for me to land a simple 2-hit crossup LK, standing HP on him (this is offline, so online would be worse) unless I turned on autofire HP. I suppose this is why all online Giefs get free Lairats on me even when my crossup hits, because I can’t time the HP.

cr.HK as anti-air trades with splash, way in Gief’s favor, and I believe only beats it clean just inside max range splash (max range splash will not make contact with it because it is at Gief’s “magic splash distance”; anything closer and and splash will cross up and cr.HK cannot anti-cross up). cr.HK will beat Gief jumping HP at max range, but at that range, Gief is jumping in with splash anyway. The only reason to use Gief jumping HP at its max range (the range it will lose to Chun cr.HK), is because Chun’s standing HP beats splash clean at that range, and Gief mixes in jumping max range HP to beat Chun standing HP. Still though, even if Chun guesses right, she is doing far too little damage vs. when Gief guesses right. The risk/reward trade is always in Gief’s favor. And as you said, with anti-airs universally raped, even when you think you’re properly distanced, Chun’s antiairs sometimes fail. Which is why offline options like standing LP counter-hit anti-air into cc. jumping strong --> cr.HK; or walk under anti-crossup st.MP vs. Gief splash are not viable tactics vs. online Gief… the high probability of it missing is not worth the risk.

The wakeup game when Gief is getting up is still very bad. Take that Godweapon server’s A3 finals (the biggest example of online lag abused to its fullest), first match: Cammy vs. Gief. In the 3rd round, your Gief was practically guard broken and knocked down. All my Cammy had to do was do a Level 3 Reverse Shaft Breaker on your getup to guard break and win. But what happens; she gets SPDed instead. And then when we went on the Chun vs. Gief sets, there are countless times that Chun simply got SPDed seemingly free when Gief is getting up. It’s because the timing for jump back in order to bait the VC/SPD is seemingly random; and even then, early commited Lairat would’ve beaten 2 Chun options:

  1. meaty HP
  2. jump back bait

I guess I’d put Chun in A rank rather than S. Gief, who already does well against her offline, makes it an even harder match for her online. Ken (and all shotos), gives her a hard time offline, and that air-hurricane crap kills her online. Even Quinton McCleod jump back short Sakura kills Chun. But she does pretty much kill everyone else, and has a good matchup vs. online Sim (if she just avoids his airthrow).

depends on the ping you get with the person your fighting. i never really have terrible connections just not always great ones

Ah, so you’re lust. The problem is that with our mathces…the lag was even more intense than usual. The formula goes, the laggier the game, the better gief is. Under just normal EC vs EC A3 matches on GW, the stuff I mentioned actually works. Its strange but Chun v Gief works best in medium lag, but not in extreme or no lag haha

Good find with the X-Chun stuff. I’d definitely say A-Chun is the weakest of the S tiers but she is so much above the rest of the A-tiers I’d be hard pressed to put her there.

these guys sound like they’re talking about HORRIBLE lag, not lag in general. there’s lag like… no matter what online, not much you can do to get around it. shit like “jumporama” is easy to react to if the game isn’t lagged by a ridiculous amount of time. also not only that, having a feel for shit like that helps. I haven’t gotten lag that bad since 56k though, and even then i could beat out that shit on my best day.

stop playing on servers located in China

So better or worse than Xbox?

No we’re talking about normal everyday mame 0.64 kal lag on north american servers. If you can correclty react to the majority of jumpins in the same manner that you do offline then that’s as ridiculousg as me saying I can dp Akuma divekicks on reaction offline (even the Japs can do that), or your reactions offline just aren’t that good

“normal everyday mame lag”? i guess i’ve never had this lag before. lag only screws me when it’s bad, not normal. any jumpins that hit me hit me because i totally wasn’t expecting it, not because i was too laggy to react. even if i were too laggy to react the first try, i never miss 2nd and 3rd and usually avoid the followups, like being thrown or sweeped, especially in sfa3. i’m not saying there isn’t a difference, i’m just totally not believing you when you speak that way about silly shit such as jumpins because my experience hasn’t been such.

You have less time to react to stuff online, period. Whether you say the lag is “not that bad” or not, that fact is true. I’m sure you wont disagree with that so,…:

add that together with moves that you have VERY, VERY little time to reaact to OFFLINE… add in the time to actually confirm the button presses for the counter, and then add in the lag… and things that you have a split second to react to offline become VERY VERY hard or impossible to counter online throguh reaction.

I mean you can still play the guessing game and guess what theyre going to do next, provided you have the lag timing down, but thats not REACTING. It’s different online cause you gotta guess a lot more, and react a lot less.

Thios doesnt mean its absolutely impossible, but it means it greatly weakens ability to react. Which will obviously change how good certain things are. Which, once again, is all the thread is about! He didn’t say its absolutely impossible to stop a jumpin or anything.

i even said it myself, lag is gonna be just about anywhere online (cept maybe controlsim. heard that shit’s gonna be like playing the person right next to you). and yeah, i understand that anything can happen within a second and splitting reaction time by any means fucks up reactions. i just don’t agree with the jumporama shit. you might not be able to react to an Akuma diving kick online, but that doesn’t mean you can’t react to a jumpin. if you can’t, it’s usually more of a you problem than a lag problem (unless your ping’s like over 200 or some shit)

No, even on a 20-30 ping reacting to jumpins is hard. Kaillera is jump-o-rama.

at times its worse if you play against someone with alow ping then its better. :tup: its hella more fun than live at times tho

As I’ve said before, I have beatten most people online, but I have to resort to the retard tactics that I listed in my first post, and you know what? It works because other people can’t react either. I am just as guilty as say Hadou Ken for abusing lag tactics, and its exactly why I posted why certain chars are SOOOO much better online.

Example: On .64, I own Orangemegaslide’s Guy with my V-Gief. Brainless repeat splashes and j. fierce is enough to win. Unlike me, Slide does not sell out online to a lag-friendly character. However, on .61, if I try the same bs, Slide will counter all my jumpins with cr. strong (which is hard to time in any kind of lag). I have to think SOOOO much more just to beat him since I can’t just jump at will with one stupid tactic.

Another example, on the other side I rarely played V-ryu towards the end of my Kalliera career when I was still on .64. Slide’s Guy used to go pretty even or win a little more than my Ryu did agianst him. Once we switched over to .61, (and lag was less of a factor), he couldn’t jump for free anymore because it is a LOT easier to react to jumps, and he got hit by hella sweeps (in the initial adjustment period) because he had no idea, from even our extensive play together on .64, that I had a decent ground game, so in the beginning I was rocking him for free before he, ironically, got adjusted to non-lag and it became pretty much even before, but with a lot more thinking put into the play

I see mostly mention here of “if it’s executed, it is more effective online than offline”, without taking into account that the lag that affects reaction to said tactics also affects execution of said tactics. Blanka and Ken have always been my mains, and those are the ones I primarily play online (never realized I fall solely in the “cheesy” category, until reading this thread :confused: ). Executing Ken’s air HK is much more difficult online, and in fact, it has to be comboed off of a jump (i.e. up/towards->towards->down/towards->down->down/back->back + kick), and leaving the ground has to be timed extremely well in order to be a pressure move. Knowing that these tactics will be used by other Ken players, it also makes it easier to counter, as the arc of this usually takes Ken near off the top of the screen (thus leaving plenty of time to counter with a dp or get out of the way altogether). The same holds true w/ Blanka’s jump-ins. Sure they’re quick, but you have to press your attack as soon as you leave the ground in order to not have it result in an empty jump->standing attack. Again, this increases vulnerability (primarily to anti-air supers).

Also worthy of note: being a Blanka player, I know what to expect when facing him, and the ball is a guarantee. Any shallow/short-duration (such as jab dp) anti air attacks are effective against the ball, when it’s being unleashed from a distance (i.e. good probability of counter, with little risk of vulnerability).

My thoughts.

B-: V-Ken/V-Mika

B: A-Ryu/A-Rose

old topic yes.

but Lust lied. stomp, cross up works in all modes. A/V/X. seems character specific though

Wait why is V-Ryu or V-Cammy Ranked so low? I know I’m no wheres near the top But I’m quite sure that V-ryu isn’t far behind V-Akuma or V-Sakura.
I mean I have a match here with Daigo Playing some unknown, it dosn’t seem like ryu is any thing but nice in A3

Unknown VS Daigo

Also in a Japanese tournament I did see alot of Characters ued but V-Ryu,V-Akuma, V-V-Dhalsim and V -Sodom were up there.

This is some parts fomr the actualy tournament
1998 Japan SFA3 Tournament (Part 4 of 6)

1998 Japan SFA3 Tournament (Part 5 of 6)

1998 Japan SFA3 Tournament (Part 6 of 6)

In the grand finals (if you wanna call it that) Deigo use’s V-Akuma and Alex use’s V-ryu. Even tho this si old I think it shoudl atleast show that High level V-Ryu Can compet with High level V-Akuma.