SFV's Balance: Nerfing Before Release, Buffing After; Finding Deficiencies in Character Design


#1

People don’t seem to understand the balance philosophy that might be behind recent balance changes.

Capcom doesn’t want to nerf the characters once SFV releases; Capcom is going to want to mainly balance through buffs when they’re actively rolling out seasonal changes. They’ve said this before.

During a developmental phase like this, nerfs are significantly more helpful to developing a balanced game than buffs because they yield a lot more information about a character. If they nerf Ryu’s parry and he’s still a solid character, that’s a sign of a sound design. If they nerf his parryand he suddenly becomes trash, that means his entire design was completely reliant on one aspect which is bad. Buffing his parry wouldn’t reveal anything because buffing a character doesn’t tell you anything about them.

Buffing is for fixing character deficiencies, but nerfs are for finding those deficiencies.


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#2

We’ll see if they stay true to this come Febraury 2016


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#3

After everything we have seen overall. This does seem like a possible direction.


#4

Do you have a link where capcom specifically says this? I know they said they wanted to balance via buffs not nerfs and we haven’t seen that to be the case at all. I never saw them say they wanted to use nerfs to find deficiencies and then buff from there.

Having said that, I do also think it’s a flawed assumption that in order to get an initial balance one has to start out at a low point and buff things from there. I think it’s fully possible to start out at a medium reasonable point of balance and go from there. Right now though it seems like characters are near barebones minimum strengthwise when it comes to gameplay. Like all they have going for them are cancels and priority at this point.

They don’t have safe moves in general, which promotes more buttons in general, they don’t have high damage in general which promotes more attacking in general since attacking gives you more damage.
They don’t have fast /varied movement speed which promotes more movement since it’s easier to fake your opponent out with skill.
They don’t have Everyman hitconfirms of the 3 attack variety, which also promotes offense via safe confirms into pressure on block and damage on hit.

Right now the game is just a lot of walking back and forth and pressing buttons while doing random jump attacks.

Hope they pull this shit in and make it a decent game come release time but I don’t think that is going to happen. Here’s to hoping im wrong :slight_smile:


#5

They said they want to buff instead of nerf during the evo panel, but at this point we just have to assume they mean post launch. It seems the way the characters were was obviously not the direction they wanted to take them for launch. Which since the game is still in development its hard to judge the nerfs on the same level as post launch nerfs.

Its a matter of them sticking to their word after launch at this point.


#6

I don’t trust them to keep their word on that.


#7

I don’t either, but im sure the pitchforks and torches will be ready should they not.


#8

Considering that this game has over two decades of Street Fighter experience behind it (there are people who are working on SFV that have been playing Street Fighter literally their entire lives), I have a lot of faith in Capcom right now. USF4 is incredibly well balanced for such a sprawling cast and the game has been going strong for seven years.

I find it odd that people don’t give others the benefit of the doubt when it comes to drawing conclusions about the game. Street Fighter is not rocket science. There seems to be a trend of wanting to find and nit pick little shit without looking at the big picture – the game is still in development, development will continue for years after release, and the guys that are developing the game know just as much about Street Fighter as anyone posting on these boards here. Yet…Ryu gets nerfed, people get up in arms about it even though they’ve had practically no time with the game. And no, two weekend betas and a hacked training mode is hardly anything compared to someone who is actually working with the game every day, and has been since its inception.

I’m not saying you can’t be vocal about your opinions, or that you can’t have opinions, or that you only have to discuss positive things – naturally people are going to discuss and debate balance and changes – but it kills me to see people so fucking bullheaded when they voice those opinions. Like when LiangHuBBB makes a video like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4zWt7ZR3bY

and the first words of the video are “I don’t know what Capcom was thinking.” It’s like, man, I know you’re a beast, but fuck sakes, you’ve played two weekend betas, you’ve potentially grinded in training mode in the hack, and you’re playing an unreleased game with no established meta where nobody really knows what the fuck they’re doing. How can you even start tiering characters or make such sweeping judgements about balance changes at this point?

People just need to relax.


#9

I literally lolled when I read that. No offense really, but that’s basically the exact opposite of how I feel.


#10

Why?


#11

How about making throws not complete ass? That’s the only problem I have with the gameplay.


#12

People have a right to express that they are not liking the initial heavy nerfs that are going on with the characters. Even if it is during development. Capcom said they would buff more than nerf and that they won’t patch the game much during the Capcom Cup season. At least during development they have been messing with values a lot which has some people extremely skeptical.

If you’re looking for a sound, competitive take on SF Capcom will fit the bill for SFV. Just in the same way that SFIV worked even if there are people who were/are very vocal about how it felt off from older SF games.

Its just those that expect the game to work more like a previous SF offering probably won’t have a lot of faith. They may change some things to make it more old school, but just like SFIV you will ultimately have to play whatever SFV becomes. Unless you just drop the game completely


#13

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*Faith…

in…

Capcpom?*

I got more faith in Congress…


#14

I miss your Joker eating popcorn avatar :frowning:

As for the whole have faith in Capcom… eh… I’ll still play SFV regardless on who gets botched and whatnot, since just a simple switch in characters is enough if it’s not to one’s liking.

…but guaranteeing that they will constantly stick with the buffs only treatment is a pretty bold statement, especially with recent changes in the beta. People can say whatever they feel about what’s currently going on with SFV changes, it’s still critique that’s worth taking note of.


#15

Bbbuuut, Bernie Sanders… :frowning:

Feel the Bern yo!


#16

This thread gave me aids


#17

Are you positive?

(I’ll see myself out)


#18

So you were with Charlie Sheen?


#19

Nobody is worried that the game will be unbalanced. They are worried that the game will be boring.


#20

But well nerfing does reveal character deficiencies or the lack of its a bad idea to leave a character nerfed if they aren’t a problem before hand. The stronger and more varied the tools the more depth a game can potentially have. I have fear Capcom is trying to water the game down and pander to its pretend esports audience it thinks its going to get and will leave everyone heavily nerfed in the final version so everyone is “viable”. That just doesn’t sound fun at all to me honestly considering ST/Alpha were my favorite SF/series and had tons of strong tools. SFV’s early dmg/stun/framedata was what made it seem so fun. Its just my feedback/opinion but also i believe Alpha counters are too weak and could be a answer to alot of problems getting nerfed. I have no idea why Capcom seems to be ignoring the mechanic so much some ACs are literally 20 frames or worse and OSable out the ass.