SFV's Radical Changes to Old Characters

I wanted to make this thread earlier, but wanted to wait until the last non new SF character released to be sure. Now that Dhalsim is out and Dhalsim is probably the most changed of all of the old cast outside of maybe Birdie, it is obvious that Capcom is looking to make sure we are playing new versions of all of our old characters.

The only real exceptions to this are Ryu, Cammy and Chun Li. They have some nice nuances to them, but for the most part you can come from an older SF game and feel right at home with them. Pretty much every other returning character has a bunch of new stuff including their V Triggers that makes them play pretty abstractly from their old style. Some of them like Gief have reverted to just kinda being the old walking forward wall of buttons and grabs, but then has all of his new stuff like air grab, armor and essentially a vacuum to bring him to you.

People have been very vocal about their trouble with Vega being a motion character (but that has phased out a bit now), Gief no longer having green hand (even though that was only really relevant to him in ST and IV), and now Sim who is pretty much more reminiscent of a KI or anime character than Sim. Filipino Champ, Arturo, Ultra David and other known Sims have tried to crack him out at Capcom Cup and all have struggled to even get him to work. This character has so much new stuff including air yoga flame, different air normals and the ability to float in an area of the screen that most SF characters can’t even participate in.

What are your thoughts on all of the radical changes to the old cast? Do you think this is something they should continue for characters like Guile, Sean, Rolento, Honda, Boxer and others? Or is this too much and makes the characters too complicated and removes too much of their gameplay identity?

Its ok to change characters we’ve seen time and time again more than it is to change characters we haven’t seen in along time.

The answer is simple: get Combofiend to demo everyone and show us what they can actually do.

I’m putting Virtua Leon comments because I agree with them:

Mika and Birdie are exceptions because their gameplay wasn’t that important or sacred to begin with, but most of the time I’m of the idea that, if people can’t be hype about playing the character’s core again, then bringing back the character is a waste even if you say they are going to be reinvented (or if the plan is to give him moves from another character, just bring that character instead). If people were actually hype about playing the character moveset as it was, then don’t kill their illusions by changing it entirely (yes, talking about Karin). A character should be like 80 % his or her past moveset with buffs to correct old defects and 20 % new moves that change the dynamic of how to play with or against the character compared to previous versions. Account for changes that the new universal mechanics will make: sometimes the character will fit very well (reason to bring him back) and some other times the new moves should account for specific weakness to the new mechanics, although if the character truly don’t fit without massive changes why bringing it back in first place.

For example: if Dudley makes it in he could be given him a KoF-style short hop and a crossup ala Iori where he turns around in order to change the way he plays in a very important way, but without negating signature moves like the Machine Gun Blow or the Duck so he still retains some old tactics the mains can relate to while having some new goods to explore. Stuff like let’s make him a character whose best combo damage is 180 and now he does command grabs in the name of total reinvention or let’s keep him exactly as he was who cares if mechanics are different and let’s give him this thunderbolt which is so useless it will only be pulled out like once every three matches are the things I’m totally against.

I think it’s great, as long as the changes are fun.

Imma scared at what they are going to do to Urien O.o

He seems so easy to port over playstyle wise that it would make sense to keep him mostly intact… right? ( Capcom plz dont pull a karin…)

I want them to keep diverging into new ground, so long as the changes are fun, thematic, and that the characters still feel somewhat familiar.

This is SF5 and I want a new game, new chapter, progress and evolution. Returning characters should follow this mantra or they shouldn’t return.

I don’t mind changes at all so long as it keeps a character effective or improves their effectiveness. The old saying of “charge characters have no future because they’re always holding back” is something I’ve kept in mind when Vega got changed. And I’m glad he did. I think Birdie’s change is fitting too since he was nearly a Balrog clone in alpha, and not very good at that. & Nash.

R Mika was terrible IMO in Alpha also. If they had her retain her gameplay identity from that game I think she’d be underwhelming. And Capcom/Dimps has retained her gameplay identity in a different way. Her V trigger is similar to her stage super, except she’s not the one performing it. But all she really had going for her in the Alpha games was air block :confused:

Not caring to discuss anybody else already in the roster, I gotta say that if other characters get added in, I want them to have shit that’s going to work at various ranges. Like in 3S, if players crouched at a certain range against Urien, he had no good damage options, requiring him to play more aggressive/gambling style. He couldn’t combo off of c.LK, and all he had from c.LP chains was EX tackle. A big maybe that’d tackle too. Necro is another example where even after a successful parry, he couldn’t get any optimal combos except going straight from a normal into super which increased execution, therefore barrier, from wanting to use him as a reliable main.

So again, just using those characters as an example, I’d want whoever gets added in to be effective regardless of how changed or different they are. I understand like Vega can’t get LP roll after a certain number of jabs, and that’s fine, because it teaches people they need to confirm their damage faster and with fewer hits. And it’d be one of those overpowered moves if it did work from hit at max c.LP distance. Would be way too effective as a whiff punish that could convert into super.

Anyway, if I say anymore I’ll probably just sound like I’m rambling, and I’ll just make redundant points.

As SF2rs fan i really like how they changed them. Ken and Sim in particular

Thing i dislike is the lack/remove of moves… not so fan of keep tools at minimum imho it risk make the game repetitive sooner

-I’m fine with Ryu staying classic, but i think sf4(omega) Counter Punch or SF3 Mule Kick will have been cool, both will be very nice in this version, specially the CP

-Chun’s new air special in first build was cool as fuck, too bad they removed it

-New Dictator is awesome, but i already miss Psycho Crusher… imho it will be nice if he get it at least when in V-Trigger psycho power mode

-more tank/grappler Gief is a very welcome turn, fuck lil combos of bitchslaps and i don’t even miss GH.
But give me back Atomic Suplex

my 2cents about other probable returning ones

Guile- keep him classic. Some new command normals, maybe a new trick.
Ryu approach sound good on him… maybe give him the abilityon VT to charge his sonic boom, like a mini version of his sf4 U2.
Vskill may be block related.

Boxer- Revolution him a lil bit. Dude is too straightforward and repetitive to stay unchanged. Maybe new stuff for close distance… target combos or new specials, hope no command throw.
Will be fun if hi concept end up being crush the block/guard with charged stuff, then have the tools to deal dmg from very close.

Sagat - half classic, half revolution.
Keep stuff that give him identity like the high-low fireballs, but try to move him away from shotoness, push on muay thai stuff. Will be cool if they put emphasis on range advantage… maybe give him classic high (AA), middle (zoning/dmg) and low(a long low/knockdown) kicks.
As VT angry scar

Fei- Revolution him a lot, there are fuckton of Bruce Lee classic tricks they can use to give him new stuff :smiley:
10 inch punch as Vreversal please :smiley:

You need to keep a character’s flavor intact, else you might as well just make a new one.

If the old character’s archetype works, bring it back with some touch-ups geared toward the new game. Ryu is basically always designed this way, and it usually works out.
If the character would be completely out of place and ineffective without a complete overhaul, leave him to die and make a new character instead.
Exceptions granted in cases where one character is too much of a retread of another, so a bigger re-work is warranted. (e.g. Ken and especially Nash if Guile gets in)

I lost a lot of interest in Karin when I heard that a lot of the things I liked about how she played in A3 were either removed or gated behind V-Trigger.
Mika, on the other hand, was a character that I always thought was funny but didn’t care for gameplay-wise at all, so none of her changes bother me.

I’m just disappointed that they seemed to be willing to take risks with Chun when she first showed, only to remove everything afterwards.

I don’t know… I like when Capcom takes risks, but Chun was looking very MAHVEL in the pre-beta demos.

A little MAHVEL hurt nobody. Everything in moderation.

People literally died from Morrigan/Doom lockdown. Chun’s V-Trigger Triggered PTSD.

My sentiments exactly. I was so hype when I first saw her until I realizes what they did to her. Not sure why they revamped her so much when she was already pretty unique to begin with. If she comes back in a new SF, her rekkas had better be her main specials instead of being locked behind meter. Don’t really care if her command dash comes back or not.

Ryu and Chun need a new wardrobe…

But we’d rather have a little 3S (or alot of 3S) over a little MAHVEL.