SFxT ver. 2013 - How it affect's Poison

poison

#1

To start here is the Official Text from Capcom-unity.com

"Command change - Backflip command changed from KK to KKK
Forward Dash - Full animation reduced from 22 to 16 frames
Close MP - Damage increased from 60 to 70

  • 3 frames added to Boost Combo (-5 on hit, -9 on block)
    Far HP - Damage increased from 90 to 100
  • 7 frames added to Boost Combo (-14 on hit, -19 on block)
  • Push back on block for boost combos reduced
    Close HK - Start up reduced from 14 to 11 frames
    cr. MP - 3 frames added to Boost Combo (-4 on hit, -8 on block)
    cr. HP - Startup decreased from 9 to 7 frames / Frames reduced by 8 (±0 on hit, -6 on block)
    Elbow Drop - Start up increased from 17 to 21 frames. / Active frame on attack reduced from 6 to 5 frames / Frames reduced by 6 (-1 on hit, -5 on block)
    Note: confirmed on Ryu / Damage increased from 60 to 70
    Love Me Tender (L) - Startup decreased from 29 to 27 frames
    EX Whip of Love - Second hit frames changed to +1 on hit and -3 on block / 4th hit frames changed to -8 on block
    Slapshot - Damage reduced from 150 to 140
    Special move meter gain
    Whip of Love 1st Hit: on hit 20->30
    Whip of Love 2nd Hit: on hit 20->15
    Whip of Love 3rd Hit: on hit 10->20
    Love Me Tender: on hit 20->30
    Love Me Tender (ender): whiff 5->15, on hit 20->70
    Kissed by a Goddess (L): on hit 20+20(40)->20+10(30)
    Kissed by a Goddess (M): on hit 10 x 2+20(40)->20+8 x 2(36)
    Kissed by a Goddess (H): on hit 10 x 4(40)->20+8 x 3(44)
    Aeolus Edge: whiff 15->0, on hit 40->30"

And now the breakdown:

Command change - Backflip command changed from KK to KKK
–Reasonable change as it makes it much harder for accidental Backflips when doing EX KBG or LMT

Forward Dash - Full animation reduced from 22 to 16 frames
–Most likely a mistake on Capcoms part I do believe.Poisons forward dash has not been changed in any patch since release and it was originally the fastest forward dash in the game (14 frames). With how charge attacks have minimum frames before being able to cancel it becomes 19 frames for normal CADC and 17 frames for EX CADC which made it equal in speed with lots of other characters.

The text from Capcom-unity reads “Forward Dash - Full animation reduced from 22 to 16 frames” which if you look at her frame data makes no sense as her BACKdash is 22 frames while her Forward Dash is 14 frames. The only logical conclusion I could get from this is that they are NERFing her forward dash to 16 frames. The reason for nerfing it baffels me but perhaps they are worried about her already strong (in comparison) CADC game with the new 5 frame throws.

That said we have to wait and see as this is purely based on the assumption that this is a nerf to forward dash rather than buffing backdash due to the fastest backdash being Kazuyas at 19 frames and all the rest being 21+ which seems like too drastic a change especially when you consider its 3.5x faster than her backflip unique move.

The effects this will have on Poisons gameplay look quite harsh in that lots of her CADC combos will no longer work e.g.

–cl.HP xx EX CADC, cl.HP
–cl.HP xx CADC, cl.LP
–far.st.MP xx EX CADC, st.LK
–cl.HP xx CADC, cl.HP xx HK.KBG (Post Launcher Midscreen Juggle)

Needless to say I am very interested to see how this turns out in particular because of the nerfs to many characters 3 frame normals the new 5 frame throws and how her Elbow drop (Overhead) will operate in the patch may create an interesting frame trap / Throw / Overhead mix-up situation.

Close MP - Damage increased from 60 to 70
** - 3 frames added to Boost Combo (-5 on hit, -9 on block)**
–Close MP was already a good move as its multi-hit nature made it a safe switch cancel and corner juggle attack. The extra damage while minor is always nice and adds up.
–The extra frames in Boost combos serves as part of the across the board nerf to the “safety net” boost combos provided meaning you just have to play smarter and weigh up the risks more.

Far HP - Damage increased from 90 to 100
** - 7 frames added to Boost Combo (-14 on hit, -19 on block)**
** - Push back on block for boost combos reduced**
–The changes seem to be putting an emphasis on making this a long range poke with the extra 10 damage increasing the reward when getting that occasional hit.
–The large Boost combo nerf at first glance looks like its intended to try and make the move highly unsafe at short range and to Posion from using it as a short range tool to generate space.
–However I believe it is rather more a direct nerf specifically to Poison chaining into it from a max range far.st.MP, crouching MP or crouching MK as even on block that chain generates extra distance and seems to be unpunishable in lots of situations.
–The reason I say this is because shorter range space generation is the same if you use crouching HP or far standing HK instead and both have better frames but will whiff when boosted into from a far.st.MP, cr.MP, cr.MK from max range.

Close HK - Start up reduced from 14 to 11 frames
–Most likely another error by Capcom as Poisons Close standing HK is 6 frame startup and Crouching HK (sweep) is 10 frame start up.

Her Far standing HK is a 14 frame startup however and thus would make sense with the frame data change as the faster start up would make it a more viable anti-air and would stand in line with the buff to Crouching HP startup.
–As a buff I can see no real downside, slightly better at anti air enabling to be used more often to threaten another angle of attack, yes please.

cr. MP - 3 frames added to Boost Combo (-4 on hit, -8 on block)
–Not much to say other than another part of the game wide nerf to boost combos to increase the risk/reward for using them.

cr. HP - Startup decreased from 9 to 7 frames / Frames reduced by 8 (±0 on hit, -6 on block)
–Pretty big change in comparison with its previous frame data its most likely looking something like:

Old cr.HP - Start up 9 / 4 Active / 30 Recovery / -8 on Hit / -14 on Block
New cr.HP - Start up 7 / 4 Active / 22(or 24) Recovery / 0 on Hit / -6 on Block

Its faster start up makes it a better anti air while its shorter recovery and better on hit/block frames make it much safer in general.
–It also might be easier to squeeze it in when using it near the end of juggles

Elbow Drop - Start up increased from 17 to 21 frames. / Active frame on attack reduced from 6 to 5 frames / Frames reduced by 6 (-1 on hit, -5 on block)
Note: confirmed on Ryu / Damage increased from 60 to 70
–That means in comparison it will most likely look something like this**:

Old Elbow Drop (Overhead) Frames - Start up 17 / Active 6 / Recovery 18 / -6 on Hit / -11 on Block / 60 Damage
New Elbow Drop (Overhead) Frames - Start up 21 / Active 5 / Recovery 18 / -1 on Hit / -5 on Block / 70 Damage

Looks bad but Elbow drop works in a pretty weird way due to having airborne frames and a strange hitbox. I tested the old Elbow drop on numerous characters and found that depending on how large the opponents crouching/standing hurtbox you gain or lose frames.

For example the Old Elbow Drop vs Ken
-On Block - Ken cannot punish with forward step kick (11 frames) meaning its at least -10.
-On Standing Hit - At point blank he cannot punish with cr.MK (-5) but a small bit of distance and he can meaning its very close to -4/5 frames.
-On Crouching Hit - Totally Safe, unable to punish with any 3 frame move i.e. HP/EX Shoryuken, cr.LK

Presuming that it works in a similar manner but with the new frame data it looks much better as it would be -4/5 on Block, Standing Hit 0/+1, Crouching Hit +2/+3 meaning on counter hit you would gain the two frames necessary to combo off of it.

Yes the overhead is 4 frames slower on startup but looking at other overheads they are in a similar range on 21-24 frame start up so I see no issue as long as the Poison player plays well.

**The Change Log said “Frames reduced by 6” which I presume is just the negative frames rather than reducing its recovery time though there is a reasonable chance that’s what they did to get the extra “advantage” frames.

Love Me Tender (L) - Startup decreased from 29 to 27 frames
–Honestly cant see this changing anything interesting from how it works at the moment. May perhaps make it more viable to combo into at the end of a juggle but feels like another wait and see change.

EX Whip of Love - Second hit frames changed to +1 on hit and -3 on block / 4th hit frames changed to -8 on block
–This is actually a decent change as in the rare times we use EX WoL we now get enough time to react to when it is blocked and thus safely end it. Previously due to requiring to do the inputs rather fast you needed to be confident that you had hit to follow through with the rekka chain.

Slapshot - Damage reduced from 150 to 140
–Small damage nerf nothing big to be honest considering Poison was one of the few with the 150 damage forward throw instead of the standard 140.

Special move meter gain
Whip of Love 1st Hit: on hit 20->30
Whip of Love 2nd Hit: on hit 20->15
Whip of Love 3rd Hit: on hit 10->20
Love Me Tender: on hit 20->30
Love Me Tender (ender): whiff 5->15, on hit 20->70
Kissed by a Goddess (L): on hit 20+20(40)->20+10(30)
Kissed by a Goddess (M): on hit 10 x 2+20(40)->20+8 x 2(36)
Kissed by a Goddess (H): on hit 10 x 4(40)->20+8 x 3(44)
Aeolus Edge: whiff 15->0, on hit 40->30"

Note: 300 “Points” = 1 bar of meter
–Whip of Love essentially gained 30% extra meter on Hit
–Love me Tender + Ender now generates 33% of a bar on Hit (250% increase) !? Perhaps this may see it being very useful at the end of juggle combos due to its large meter gain?
–Kissed by a Goddess small meter nerf from Light/ Medium but almost irrelevant due to Heavy being the go to for most combo usage.
–Aeolus Edge whiff nerf looks like its specifically done to stop people from CADC to gain meter and to make it tougher to gain meter out of combat probably to promote faster games.
**


#2

Affects*


#3

Bleh, such a bad habit of mine that I write effect rather than affect in far too many situations.
Thanks for pointing it out, I wonder if I moderator could correct the title please as I can’t seem to be able to do so.


#4

You should see an option at the top of the thread that says “Thread Tools.” Click on it and then the option in the dropbar “Edit Thread.” There you can change the thread title. : )


#5

With the new overhead buff, I was thinking maybe we could charge CH and do a meaty overhead and perhaps link a combo?

It’s -1 on hit now with 5 active frames and I think it’s +3 hitstun for CH overhead, so if we can make it hit on the last/2nd last active frame, it’ll be +4/5, linkable via cl.lp/cr.lp, so perhaps there’s some setups to be explored for this, although it’ll be tricky as Poison doesn’t really have any good moves that gives her enough advantage to perform this (perhaps ex WoL but the meter may not be worth it).


#6

@Fergus2k8, its something to investigate but it really only sounds like you could regularly do it after a cancelled sweep. Though there may be options after a throw or LMT + followup. There may also be some funky character specific stuff if its like how I said above, which may open up a rather interesting charge counter hit -> dash into throw/overhead/attack which would increase pressure heavily as downback vs Poison currently is super strong.


#7

The new “additional” changes to the patch are:

Poison
Forward dash: overall animation increased from 14 to 16 frames.
Crouching HP: start-up changed from 9 frames to 7 frames, advantage on hit reduced by 8 frames (now leaves Poison at +0).
Far standing MP: added 3 frames during Boost Combo (on hit -5 frames, on block -9 frames).


Essentially this confirms my thoughts that the original Forward Dash change mentioned before was a nerf rather than a buff. This does mean there will need to be some testing to see if --cl.HP xx CADC, cl.HP xx HK.KBG (Post Launcher Midscreen Juggle) still works and where the limits of it are on stage.
The Crouching HP change no longer includes on block so it looks like as I said before a good anti-air but now it is much riskier on block meaning you will most likely have to cancel it into Aeolus Edge to make it safe.


#8

Well to be honest I’m so so with the changes personally. I think Posion should have got more buffs that encourage team synergy such as fixing the juggle on the dp, making her have different combo opportunity (not nesscesarily more damage). Capcom seems to want Posion to be a meter gaining whore. (that meter gain plus meter gems will be insane). So I guess it helped my Posion & Nina/ Posion & Lilli teams


#9

I’m not too sure about the meter gain. As it stands right now on average I only get a bar or so w/o meter gems.

Even with buffs in meter gain I don’t think it’s that big of a jump from what she is now.

I think the WoL meter buff is ok and about the LMT ender, it’s something I use all the time for the mixup options rather then raw damage/meter when it lands… However boost is still like one of the best options out of it.

[]Planetune’s CPU[/]


#10

The one thing they really failed to do was give poison’s low forward a bit more range. It’s one of those phantom hitboxes where Poison would be a bit better applying pressure midscreen and into the corner.


#11

That damn move. To this very day I still keep thinking it will hit when it doesn’t. Hate that range.


#12

i don’t know how to use affect and effect. can someone help<br>


#13

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/55235/Donald%20Duck">Donald Duck</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>i don’t know how to use affect and effect. can someone help<br></div>
</blockquote><p>

<br>Poverty <em>affects </em>us all. The <em>effect </em>of this boost gem is that it adds 10% to damage.</p><p> </p><p>Back on topic, is this in the most recent patch? Is it on ps3? I only ask because I’m all up-to-date as far as I know (v 1.08) and I can still Backflip with only 2 Kick buttons.</p>