Shoto TK Tatsumakis


#1

I am just looking for some feedback on TK Tatsumakis. I am not a tournament caliber SF player but I am at least a veteran over years of playing. I put more hours into SFA3 TBH.

Ken’s juice kick is known and useful. I’ve used it back in my SSF2T 3D0 days to my SNES days. Sagat be gone. However I never tried doing tatsu variants with the other shotos.

Well I was messing around in training and pulled off a TK tatsu with Akuma. I was like cool, never used these variants before. Looks like Ken’s juice kick…but not really. After testing I was pulling off the TK tatsus with all the shotos. I was thinking that this is something new to me but why not well known or documented? I browsed the internets and got nothing.

This is my third forum looking for feedback and by far the best place for it. However I had to wait for my account activation :sad:. So IGN and gamefaqs got most of my write-ups. Anyway IGN yielded nothing (to be expected) and gamefaqs got me a bit of information.

I’m just looking for some feedback on TK tatsus. AFAIK there are three variants, UB/U/UF, but I am having a lot of trouble with the U version. I pull off the UB/UF versions no problem but the U version just doesn’t come out really, no matter how accurate I am. I’ve seen it once, just once.

Anyway I’m surprised at the UF TK tatsu. It is like Ken’s juice kick but has a higher arc and a much shorter distance. It is still interesting. And the UB TK tatsu is fun since it retreats like a UB early Air tatsu but hits the opponent before execution. Cool. And the vertical…well I have no feedback since it isn’t going over well with my hori.

Here is my sort of hypothetical breakdown:
3 variations
UB = D,DB,B,UB + K
–Travels the distance of the field. Hits opponent on the way up if close.
U = D, DB, B, UB, U + K
–Travels straight up. Hits opponent on the way up if close.
UF = D, DB, B, UB, U, UF + K
–Travels around UF jump distance with a high arc. Hits opponent on the way up if close.

Now, like I said I can’t do the TK tatsu U on command. And there is such a fine line between the UB and UF that sometimes I do one instead of the other. This makes me wonder if my control definitions are proper.

After I laid this out on gamefaqs I was told this is nothing new (with a poor attitude) and that the usefulness is nil. Well I figured it was nothing new but the reason for the lack of usefulness is that the timing is hard. So I guess if something is hard it isn’t useful…

In gameplay I’ve used the TK tatsu UB against opponents like Honda. On his rise, if I am caught close, I throw this command out on his wake. The TK tatsu UB hits him, blocked or not, and I travel to the other side of the screen with space control. Fireball trap ensues.

The TK tatsu is more fun because it leads to throw traps and a nasty Raging Demon combo.

I would just like to hear everyone’s thoughts. Once I get some concise information I can move onward and upward ;).


#2

Yeah, all the shotos have the juice kick. The upwards one (which travels slightly forward) is useless because the time you spend doing that can be spent on a superior HP dp instead. For me, it’s really easy to accidentally do the up version on a stick. Since the timing is fairly tight, if I roll to uf to do the forward juice kick and pass by up, I tend to do the up juice kick instead.

The backwards juice kick is always good for a quick retreat and of course, the forward one is amazing when unexpected (check out Mattsun’s videos with Ken; Ryu doesn’t really have a great reason to use it). It’s not easy for most players to do though and if they screw up, that’s a wide open jump-in from across the screen for your opponent to anti-air.


#3

Thanks for the response. That clears things up a lot. So I guess I have the correct motions, but like you said they are fairly tight. One response from this forum and everything is cleared up. Pages on the other forums. What does that say? :stuck_out_tongue:

Have you had success doing the TK up tatsu version as a meaty attack? The timing is tough but it forces a quick block. A meaty dp requires a real close advance in contrast. Also, do you think that a HP dp has the same vulnerability as the TK up tatsu in terms of no kd of opponent? It seems to have more advantageous movement.

I’m just really trying to analyze the TK up tatsu. The juice kick and TK back tatsu are easy to analyze but the variance of the TK up tatsu is different. It has about the same extension as a MP dp but it can cross-up. Isn’t that a benefit? I mean if the HP dp is superior then this is the only advantage of the TK up tatsu I can think of. I haven’t tested it out yet but I’m going to mess with TK up tatsu cross-up raging demon. It isn’t hard because the LP+LP stores on the way up.

If you can think of any other discrepancies besides cross-up, meaty, and vulnerability that would be great. Those are my question marks right now.

Thanks again.


#4

I’m afraid I’ve never been confident enough to use the straight up juice kick in any match. Basically, what’s the point of doing it on wakeup? The shotos already have ambiguous air hurricane kick setups (same crossup potential, same damage, same vulnerability) and, even better, great crossup combos based off jumping normals; why risk messing up a juice kick when there doesn’t seem to be any added benefit?

And as anti-air, since the foot isn’t always sticking out forward, you can bet that any dragon punch would be the more reliable bet. But I certainly haven’t tested out the upwards juice kick thoroughly and neither has anyone else here to my knowledge so if you can envision a use, go ahead and test whatever interests you.

It just seems that the difficulty plus lack of perceived benefits has kept most folks away. I’m not sure if it’s been changed or not but while Ken’s juice kick has always been relatively easy to perform, Ryu literally only had a ~1-2 frame window to juice kick in ST (you have to time it after you start the jumping animation in the direction you choose but before your qcb input wears out), which made it very difficult to execute as well. Pretty sure Gouki’s juice kick input strictness was right up there next to Ryu’s so unless they made that a lot easier in STHD (which is certainly possible), it was a huge risk.


#5

Well my confidence to use it was against the CPU so that really doesn’t account for much. I could perform it on opponent wakeup which would force a block but my vulnerability afterwards was in question. But if I crossed them up then it was a positive implementation. And yea it isn’t very useful as anti-air.

And you are correct, it is difficult. Honestly when I started Akuma TK Tatsus I was horrible. You have a fraction of a second to pull off the motions and the motions are very close. I had a very low success rate. However after adding a bit of fluidity I can go about 70%+ in training. And of course I’m more careful in match as to only do it in very rare situations. I’ll say it helps huge with my hori 3 to start in DF. DF rollback to the up motions gives me close to 100% execution in match.

I agree with your points, due to difficulty and lack of extreme effectiveness your efforts are better spent elsewhere. Lets just say it is an alternative variation of the tatsu that can be fun to pull off in leisure matches. And the only real fun comes from the cross up ability of the TK tatsu forward and the escape of the TK tatsu back. I certainly enjoy TK tatsu back against Honda on wake-up giving him a nice kick to the face and retreating for perfect fireball trap spacing. And the TK tatsu forward on wake, even when missing, to cross up really throws a wrench in the norm.

To difficult and not practical but can be a bit fun. Sounds good to me. Thanks for the feedback. I’ll still play around with the TK tatsus and maybe I’ll find some interesting gameplay mechanics ;).


#6

A duk duk duu get


#7

Execution Aid

Ah now we are talking. I have a use for this kick and I hope it you appreciate my efforts with Execution Aid all the more because of it. This post is brought to you by: [media=youtube]xi_BYZM1LsA[/media] (free download, link in description on the right side)

The straight up one might even help as well, at least in the one situation I am most familiar with, but I’ll throw out a second possible use. As mentioned the timing for Ryu is strict and just not always practical for mere mortals but if you’ve got Execution skills (and I’d say 70% is really good) you can get some good mileage out of it (at least, the jumping towards one).

The juice kick is great for getting out of corner trap setups and otherwise inescapable situations, one that comes up particularly. This is a situation where a reversal DP simply won’t save you, even if you manage to get through the slow-down Ryu’s opponent causes with his super on Ryu’s wake up. That one situation it really helps is Ryu in his fight with Dhalsim. A player’s mastery of the fast air Hurricane “juice” kick can turn the tables significantly in this particular match-up. Dhalsim can force ryu into the corner to block Dhalsim’s super or flame at certain points; the juice kick can get him clean out of those tight spots and able to punish Dhalsim from the other side before Dhalsim recovers.

A second possibility, specifically for the straight up one, is during projectile cancellations or when you think the opponent will fireball from certain distances. I can’t remember specifics and I know it might sound crazy but I remember one guy doing this and it just caught people off guard in fb-fb fights. The quicker recovery time had a lot to do with it, that’s all I remember right now, it was significant compared to recovery time from opponent if they do throw the fb I think.

Also there are certain times when a DP doesn’t cut it- more than once I know it was like the first or at most second frame of a dp I did but Dictator’s headstomp hit me out of it. with his headstomp/air attacks I can imagine it being a pretty good option sometimes but I don’t really know.

In recent years I heard of this kick being referred to as the “juice” kick but is it also called the TK tatsu? What does the TK mean?

btw one use of this against the cpu single-player is vs. blanka (this is all in ST btw, my examples in this post), right at the beginning of the round or also those times where, like cpu ken, he’s walking right towards you “with that, I’m gonna [DP] you as soon as you flinch an input, look” except it’s blanka’s up ball or some other cheating thing. The jump back juice kick should hit him cleanly, at least from the range of start-of-round.

XSPR


#8

TK = tiger knee = doing a joystick motion and ending with an upward motion, allowing you to do aerial specials close to the ground. Works for Hurricane Kicks and
Akuma’s air fireballs.


#9

Wouldn’t this motion just cause the shoto to jump backwards first?

I :love: juicekicks, but I still haven’t mastered them, and I’m looking for tips on how to do them consistently.

I mainly go UF, D, DB, B + K. It’s hard.


#10

No because you are doing this motion extremely quick. It is very unforgiving if you are too slow, too fast, not very precise, etc… But the motions I listed do work. And remember these are not conventional Ken juice kicks.

I’ve been trying to integrate these into matches with Akuma but for him, the other options available are just to much to pass up. Maybe if you really want to mix things up, but with his air fireball you don’t need to worry about the TK tatsu. The only one I use with Akuma is the TK tatsu escape. I’ve practiced this a lot in training to get my 90% execution rate with Ryu/Akuma so I instinctively perform it sometimes when I’m up close and don’t want to be.

My highlight was just a random CPU match where I did the TK tatsu escape against Blanka right when his super was going off. I landed quick and performed my RD and grabbed him right out of it, KO. That was a bit fun.

As for the TK tatsu vertical, as I said with Akuma it doesn’t make much sense. But with Ryu it may, I just haven’t tried it yet. But Akuma is so damn broken who knows what will happen with Ryu. I haven’t fought the ST CPU Akuma since my 3DO days and thought that I’d have a bit of trouble with him. I observed his tactics for three rounds in some close matches. Then I pummeled the hell out of him scoring two RDs and quite a bit of nasty airball combos. Went 2-0 finishing with one of those RDs using the ever so cheap TK airball, c.mk, and RD ;).


#11

Here’s another potential use for it, against a good Dictator. Again though I’m thinking of ST, I have no idea about hdr.

What do you do when the round starts against dictator with akuma? a lot of times, if he has the charge his psycho crusher will get you to stop throwing so many air fb’s. dictator can also jump really far, so his air kicks can cause you problems too. I imagine there’s probably a good situation or two where one of the juice kicks (even straight up one) would actually come in handy.

XSPR