Should Fei Long be nerfed?

Hello everyone.

I’m writing this to ask everyone’s opinion on the question above.

What drove me to write this was a recent discussion I had with people I know and who also play. They were saying that, in order for the game to be balanced, either Fei Long needs to be nerfed or the other characters buffed. Citing reasons such as his Rekka range (which they say can punish things other moves can’t, has great corner carry and can be confirmed), his Focus range, invincible EX CW being 0 on block, invincible MK CW, 1050 stun, command grab and his 3 frame cr. lk which can be linked from into st/cr lp -> Rekka.

I responded saying that I don’t think those are reasonable grounds for nerfing him. Let’s go over what’s been said:

Rekka: Yes, it has range, can be confirmed and has excellent corner carry… but Fei Long is, at the end of the day, a punish and footsies character. So it’s not surprising that he has a move with exceptional range specialized in punishing. As for it being confirmed, well, Fei Long is indeed unique in that regard; but then again, it’s not exactly easy to land all 3 rekkas (raw, not from a link), and they also don’t do ridiculous damage. And even after they’ve landed, what is really so god awful about them? Worst case scenario you’re pushed to the corner. Sure, that’s where Fei excels, but really, corner pressure seems to be (to me, at least) pretty easier to get out from than a vortex. And it also has little chip damage.

Not to mention that the only safe Rekka is the lp version, and even then it has to be well spaced to be safe. And the follow-up being -10 on block.

Focus range: Not really sure what to make of it. Doesn’t really seem like an OP advantage to me. Sakura also has ridiculous focus range and I don’t see people asking for that to be nerfed.

Invincible CW’s: I will agree that the invincibility on the MK CW should be removed (only EX moves should be invincible anyway); and I also agree on nerfing his EX CW frame data. Maybe make it something like -4 or 5 on block. But the invincibility should remain; it is, after all, pretty much the only way he has to get into zoners.

1050 Stun: I agree this should be nerfed.

Command grab: I really don’t see what the big deal is with this. It’s the slowest one in the game. Some people have suggested removing this move entirely, but then the question I would ask is how would he manage to open up heavy turtlers?

Cr. lk: Pretty much his only block string tool (right?). And it does lead into a link - cl.lp > cr.lp > rekka. But that doesn’t work on everyone, so he has to resort to cr. lk > cr. lp > cr. lp > rekka; the latter being a non-plinkable 1 frame link.

So, to answer my own question: I do think that nerfing his EX/MK CW, Stun and EX rekka frame data (which wasn’t mentioned) would be fair. But I really, really don’t think he deserves to have anything else nerfed. I don’t even think he needs to be buffed, he’s fine the way it is.

So I’d like to ask you all what you think. Also, I apologize for any eventual (and probable) nonsense I’ve said. I’m just learning Fei as of right now; I main Gouken.

Though I would hate to see it go, I think it’d be fine losing Invul-frames on MK Rekkukyaku. Losing that 50 extra stun he has tagged on wouldn’t really hurt him in the long run I’m sure. Better spent on some other character.

The cr.LK startup nerf is more for defensive purposes I’m thinking. Our block strings will remain, we’ll still be able to chain and link off it. Fei Long will be slightly more open to frame trapping, and less likely to squeeze in a cr.LK > cr.LP xx Rekkaken during teching and blow his opponent across the screen.

I’m surprised they didn’t make any mention of an EX Rekka nerf (yet.) I’m glad they buffed it, but as it is right now, it’s kind of reaching into that “just do it / why not” category. I don’t think it should be punishable on block, but I do think he shouldn’t be at neutral or in some instances +1. I’m expecting -1 or -2 to be announced.

Though in saying that, I do also think it will come down to what ever they end up deciding on sticking with in regards to his standard Rekkaken nerf they are proposing.

I can’t see them removing Tenshin, but if they were to, they’d either have to raise his Light Rekka Chip damage back up, or give him more block positive on his light normals to play with. I’m kind of surprised to see people still try to avoid his rekkas as if they were still doing 12 chip each pop.

I don’t think they should touch his Focus Attack. It’s good, but I don’t feel it’s anything that needs to be addressed.

EX Rekkukyaku. Your idea of making it -4 or -5 would be plain silly in my opinion. As you saidin the same sentence, for some match-ups it’s one of his more crucial tools at his disposal to get in-- on block or hit. Ideally, leave it be. But if they absolutely feel it needs to be negative, I’m sure we could live with it being -1.

I don’t think he should be nerfed, I think others should be buffed. If you do nerf, his rekka range and his isn’t what you should do. I can’t go super in-depth because I’m not a player, though I am a big supporter. You can only do so much study and theory fighting. I do plan to get a stick and go in but as of this moment my opinion isn’t favored the guys on this forum with experience. Fei should be compensated for these two buffs and yet CapCom hasn’t given us anything, Hopefully it won’t be anything irrelevant like from AE to AEv2012 where they gave damage nerf and frames changes all across our special moves only to give us +10 on overhead damage.

I don’t really get it. They nerfed balanced him fine in 2012. What’s the problem? Why again?

Apparently we need a game where 44 characters can win a major, 15 is not enough

Don’t know, mate. As Jason from these forums has said on Capcom unity, his Rekka has been pretty much the same ever since vanilla (with the exception of the tweaked frame data in AE, which was promptly nerfed in v.2012); and now, all of a sudden, it becomes an issue.

I’m really starting to feel like character balancing discussions seem to lean more towards personal gripes against a certain character than towards actually wanting to make the game balanced. It’s really the only reason I see for people asking for Fei Long, of all chars, to be nerfed.

in all honesty, I’ve seen tier lists that only give fei long like 2 bad matchups in the entire game. He’s the only character with the least amount of bad matchups and can really shutdown an opponent…if he gets in of course.

Many people forget that other characters are getting buffs, so no he doesn’t need that much nerf. I’d settle for less stun and losing invul on MK CW (not LK CW since -4). Imo, anyting else is just to please scrubs. I’m not even asking for buffs besides fixing some whiffs.

Mago suggested to remove the command grab and give him cancellable cr.MK. This is actually interesting, but somewhat sad to lose a move. Not sure I’d go for it.

His only cancelable move is Cr jab x rekka, but if they gave him cr MK x rekkas, it might be an even trade if grab is removed. MK CW is -2 right now, so IMO I think that’s fair. If they take inv away, I’d understand.

Just watching other Fei players, I start to see why the Nerf on range. Not that I agree, because so many other chars on this game have just tech that is way worse than being put in the corner. Add the fact that’s it’s not a technically safe move if spaced poorly, to me that’s not as bad as Ibuki, Cammy etc setups/shenanigans.

Dawgtanian said that every char will have something to look fwd to, but idk what that could be for Fei, as he really is fine as he is now.

If that rumor is true that you could use both ultras in a match, then Fei is still top 10 at least.

But I think given what we know as of right now, he drops considerably.

I’d take this trade in an instant. Since has great reach and lowers our hitbox things like Akuma’s St.Rh would be fully whiff punishible with a Rekka series. Also tough matches like Bison would become better since again is very effective in trading or hitting clean.

It would possibly make him even better than he is now. I really can’t see them putting that in though.

On the other hand (and I’d say that most charge characters are even/kinda bad matchups for Fei. Especially Dic and Boxer), Fei doesn’t hard-counter anyone. Sure, some characters might have it hard (I do recall that an Oni player told me he’s got it hella hard), but Fei isn’t a hard counter to anyone. You know, Gouken x Gief hard counter like.

Winning against Fei requires a different style. You do have to know how the Fei player plays, what kind of frametraps does he like to go for. Whether he likes to do midscreen rekkas or whether he prefers to slowly push you with or whether is he turtlish. And even then, Fei can switch it up. But the thing is, he doesn’t dominate. He doesn’t hit like a truck in his punishes anymore. You don’t have a reason to be scared of great backthrow setups. Unless he’s in a corner with you, he loses all the pressure when he does the combo. It all comes down to the need of switching up how you approach the opponent’s character - and that’s the reason why we have more characters in the game and more matchups, there’s nothing bad about that, that’s exactly how the game works. You aren’t supposed to play against Sagat the same as you play against El Fuerte. Fei is no vanilla Sagat-like defensive+offensive powerhouse. He is extremely balanced in everything he does, but isn’t dominating in anything he does. Kind of like UMvC3 Dante. Jack of all trades, master of none. Adaptation.

Fei should be nerfed as follows so players can stop crying

Stun lowered to 900-950

2 frames extra recovery on a whiffed rekka

2 frames extra recovery on whiffed chicken wing

LK CW -5 on block, MK CW -3 on block HK CW -1 on block. EX CW 00 on block

Fei’s core gameplay stays the same. All the top Fei Long players have spoken to me and they all agree Fei shouldnt get nerfed because he can be beat if people just learned how to fight him.

As a buff to make up for the 2nd rnd of nerfs. I would like stlp to hit all crouching characters, clmp to now be 4 frames with less pushback so we can truly use this poke.

950 is fine, 900 is too low. That’s only 50 off the lowest in the game.

Seriously they should just make the rekka corner carry 2/3rds of the distance it does now and adjust the EX rekka frame advantage.

If fools can’t punish Rekka and CW by now then you can’t serve it up to them on a plate.

Honestly, don’t ask for nerfs. Just suggest to keep the character the same, and if we get a nerf then so be it. It doesn’t help us in the long run if a nerf happens.

Seriously. Don’t ask for nerfs, not only does it feed into the people who cry for them, it may make some matches for us tilt (and who wants to work harder to begin with?)

Never really understood this either, why even participate in the discussion of “nerfs”. Don’t make suggestion to gimp you own character who is already borderline boring to play. Fei’s game plan is really simple and doesn’t take much to figure out. The worst a person has to do is figure out what type of Fei player you are; overly aggressive or a turtle looking for punishes. Once you figure that out you know how to approach him. Its not like he has a whole lot of surprises or does crazy damage anymore. And all the talk of “we’ll it won’t hurt Fei to lose x y or z it will just weed out all of the scrubs or people that relied on it” is BS talk when you have to deal with a limited tools and overall fun factor of playing him.

I agree but there’s nothing we can do but suggest nerfs that are acceptable.

He’s getting his nuts cut off regardless it seems. I personally can’t see me maining him exclusively if thats what we get. I’ll probably switch to Sagat and make Fei and alt for favourable match ups.

It’s already taxing enough trying to break down opponents who know the match up. He’ll just be a shell of a character.

[meanwhile at the former high tier support group]

Fei: I … I used to be the king

Sagat pats Fei’s back in comfort.

Sagat: me too buddy, me too. Tell you what, lets go do some tiger shots, you’ll feel better, first rounds on me.

Fei:(wiping away a manly tear spawned from testicle removal) And chicken wings ?

Sagar yeah buddy! That’s the spirit.

Ok hoping this 'something every character gas to look forward to comes through for Fei, and it’s not something stupid and random like the return of cross up chicken wing.

The compensation dot the nerfs will be interesting. If its anything at all. As stated, he isn’t insurmountable. He isn’t tricky, no vortex. Just plain street fighter, footsies and punish.

Funny, and sad but true.

So, with the lp rekka nerf, does that mean we should start focusing on hover around mp rekka range and getting the punish pattern and timing down from there?