It’s not really a loop. It’s a series of 50/50 cross ups that are not free to repeatedly execute. Considering that ST has multiple touch of death combos for most of the cast off of a single knockdown or guessed jump from the front, the presence of Claw’s off the wall tactics aren’t really bothersome to me. How can you complain about Claw having to set up multiple dives in a row when Dictator can win the entire round off of just one single knockdown and cross up?
Dictator only has to force his opponent to guess wrong just once and he wins if you can execute the touch of death. Claw players must have their opponent guess wrong at each exchange. And while the wall dive is easier to execute than Dictator’s touch of death, the wall dive barrage isn’t as easy as everyone always screams that it is.
Dictator often gets a chance at ending the round based off of one wrong guess by the opponent after a knockdown. With Claw’s off the wall dives you have a 50/50 guess at every exchange. You’ve got a 50/50 shot of guessing which way to block each time and if you guess wrong you don’t lose your entire health bar like you would against Dictator. Not only that but even the best Claw players can’t make every wall dive truly ambiguous. If you pay attention you can read which way the dive is coming from and block accordingly. And even if you can’t the odds of getting hit by three or four dives in a row isn’t enough to warrant as much complaining as people do about the wall dive. It’s hardly an inescapable sequence and really how often do top Claw players win using nothing but wall dives?
The biggest example of a wall dive massacre was Tokido versus Choi at EVO2007. Yet that was on CCC2, a port which was proven to have extra lag, and those matches were on Zangief’s stage which allegedly causes input errors as well. Trying to block wall dives in CCC2 is like playing under lag tactics conditions and is hardly indicative of how effective wall dives are on an arcade board or without extra input delay.
Are wall dives good? Absolutely without question. Are they annoying? Hell yeah. Is Claw a top tier character? Yes he is that bastard, but ST is more of a match up based game anyways so that doesn’t bother me. Is ‘hyou bal’ style play boring? Lots of people seem to hate it, but I find it very exciting actually, it shows how brutal and unforgiving ST is. Are wall dives overpowered? I would argue, like I did above, that they are not really overpowered.
Not disagreeing with you VF4, but some time around '06 or '07 there was a period where Mikado vids were coming out of Noguchi raping people with endless walldive loops. I can’t look up the exact vids right now, but from memory Kurahashi @ Guile/Ryu was getting owned pretty badly. Or maybe not and my memory just sucks.
Anyway it’s interesting to contrast ARG and MAO’s styles against Noguchi’s walldive-based game.
There was never a time when Noguchi was killing everyone with wall dives (well, maybe against Guile but he doesn’t do much of the actual loop there). I started using claw around that time and noticed that claw players rarely won tourneys (before ARG started killing last year). Plus, Noguchi tends to use safe, efficient methods to win; it’s not “wall dive all day” except against characters and situations where that strategy is optimal (e.g. Ryu knocked down).
If anything, it was around that time when zass mentioned that some JP players didn’t like claw. Even though he couldn’t rationalize it himself, a wave of anti-o.Sagat and claw sentiment nevertheless came in, along with erroneous beliefs like claw being soft-banned in Japan (despite appearing in pretty much every major JP tourney). I don’t really think claw needs wall dive knockdowns but if that was ever edited out, they should get rid of all the other loops as well (which HDR doesn’t really do).
same as blitzfu: Crazy Kicks have HDR inputs, in theory, HDR Crazy Kicks inputs are easier, but is not!, ST Crazy Kicks are EASIER, that shit just comes out of nowhere when you walk forward then want to sweep with roundhouse, so HDR inputs for CK believe it or not are “harder”, in order to pull off Crazy Kicks whenever you want it and not by accident.
wall dives are not a loop since you can stop them by just blocking the correct way and is only effective on certain characters more than others, throw traps take risky strict timing and can be countered when both players know what they are doing
honda’s super is very useful if you use it correctly, if you practice crazy kicks the way they are you will have no problem with them
if you take the time to learn things and practice before you throw your hands up and say something should be changed, you will have a very rewarding experience with this game
It’s true that NKI and nohoho don’t post any more, and it’s sad. But there is still a lot of knowledge being dropped, it’s just mixed in with discussions amongst people who don’t usually have the same level of knowledge as NKI and nohoho. So it’s not as “pure”, but the fact that there is discussion at all levels means more players rather than less, so we should be grateful for it.
It just seems like you like to drop in every month and make a post about how the scene “isn’t what it used to be”… it comes across as elitist and doesn’t really help.
geo, i have no issue with you whatsoever and have never directed negativity towards you like you have to me repeatedly
to state that i am hating on srk because “new players are discussing and asking questions” is a rude distortion of my post and deserves an apology, really
call me names or whatever makes you feel good, but people know they can ask me questions on ggpo or wherever i am and i will do my best to help you out, i am not the greatest player in the world but i try to help.
your right on a certain level, i do believe we as a community could do much better than this, I dont know what the answer is, but im pretty sure just going with the current flow aint gonna cut it
What I object to is this and your comment above that “this site has gone to hell”.
It does come across as elitist and it doesn’t help. Maybe you’ve contributed some amazing things in the past (I admit I don’t know), but it seems like everything you post on this board is in the above vein.