Sinestrology


#1

Can he cancel into the shackles? I don’t seem to be able to do it but i’ve seen people combo into it.


#2

Yes, he can. I posted this in the general thread:

Whiff Punisher: 4a~c, 4a~c x 2~4a, 4c, 2b x 2~6b (optional) meter burn, does something like 24% and leaves them half screen.
Whiff Punisher with Trait: 4a~c, 4a~c, 4a~c x trait, 2~4a, 4c, trait when close, 2b, 2~6b, trait, does around 28%, 30 something if you meter burn the 2~6b and use trait after it, sometimes you can even link a 2~6a after the trait, depending on screen positioning


#3

Sorry, I don’t know what all that means. What is ‘a~c’?


#4

I’ll translate:
Whiff Punisher: back+light, heavy, back+light, heavy x shackles, back+heavy (wallbounce), crouching medium, orange claw things (optional) meter burn to shoot them full screen again
Whiff Punisher with Trait: back+light, heavy, back+light, heavy, back+light, heavy x trait blast, shackles (tight link), back+heavy (wallbounce), trait blast when close, crouching medium, orange claw things x trait to knock them roughly full screen, or meter burn it and use trait after the projectiles have hit them to potentially link another fireball or even a meteor on their wake-up.


#5

ok thanks


#6

I personally haven’t liked using the 2-6b at all since I find I can usually get better damage without burning meter from doing 4b-a-c after an aerial after wallbounce, but IDK, still messing with my options.

Anyone find any decent combos for close range that DON’T start on 4a-c?

6b-2a into shackles is decent, but a bit slow and hits mid. You can combo j c into 2b as well for combos, but 2b KILLS damage scaling (4a-c does too). doing b-b wallbounce cancels work semi-well too but you burn a lot of meter to get decent damage plus b-b doesn’t hit crouchers. Our a sucks balls, and our grab range isn’t amazing.
I’m messing with combos starting on 4b-4c atm, but I need to test some things to see what does and doesn’t work.
Also you can combo off of j. 2-4a if you have trait. j. 2-4a>trait>shackles>wallbounce>whatever you usually do after a wallbounce.


#7

Sinestro apparently has no decent wakeups, though the game says that all specials have invincibility frames on startup.

I wish the bounce cancel controls weren’t based on dashing. It’s piss awkward.


#8

you can HCB/HCF to bounce cancel. So for a chacter with a 2,2 combo, you could 2,2,hcb MB, and that will get you a wall bounce.

I want to try out Sinestro, but shit like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WpeFTfZTnQ

and this

kinda scare me away from even attempting to learn him lol.


#9

why the hell would you using those at those range?
you should be using hos normal which are projetile in them self. If looking to counter appoentns appraoch than his air projectile the way to go.


#10

They claim the frame data in the game is wrong. I don’t know how they know this.

Sinestro crumbles at close range. He is slow however with his specials.


#11

Well, you can look at frame data for our combo moves and see it. For example, it says that our back triangle is a mid when it’s an overhead and says that forward triangle>down square is mid/mid when it’s mid/low, so yeah there’s some mistakes in that data. Also strategy guide says that Killer Frost’s slide is positive on block but the move list says it’s negative. That shit is clearly positive though.

Also IDK, he does have subpar short range stuff, but he has tools. Mid range he can easily push the opponent back a myriad of ways. Mindgaming a grab puts them near full screen again. forward and back triangle are good ways to start high/low mixups into combos that push them back full screen. Cr. Light is pretty good and a good way to get people to block. Back light>medium is safe on block BUT whiffs on crouch, and back light>heavy, while unsafe, is not punished hard, or even at all, by some characters. Cr. M is amazing too and seems safe.
Also air QCB L>crouching L is a pretty good way to make some space.
Finally, pushblock is your friend and puts people back at mid range, where we have a lot of ways to keep them out. I am seriously loving forward triangle (whiff)>down square as a mid range zoning tool, and you can tack on the heavy if it hits to put them back full screen.
OH! And standing heavy. Use the shit out of it. It’s safe on block, pushes them back really far on hit or block, on hit you can combo it into EX bullets and the move starts pretty fast and will trade with a lot of pokes, usually for more damage and giving you some breathing room.

Also Soviet, you have normals that work better at mid-range, not to mention Flash is just good at punishing zoners in general. However, Sinestro is a zoner who can theoretically cover every option, burn meter to make bullets safe at nearly any range, builds meter really easily, has ridiculous disjoints and essentially makes you have to guess which zoning tool will be thrown out and react accordingly; one bad guess sends you back fullscreen. With trait it gets even worse since he can now combo moves he couldn’t before, attack and defend at the same time, and throw extra ranged hits during the cooldown on his moves.

People are sleeping hard on Sinestro; I seriously think he’s the best zoner in this game (Although I also think Killer Frost bodies him for free).


#12

No, his moves are too slow. It’s really easy for a lot of characters, not just Flash, to get under Rocks and projectile isn’t very good at pushing back either even with MB. He hasn’t any wakeup attack and lacks close range tools which is ridiculous. He doesn’t even deal a lot of damage either and given that his projectiles aren’t fast enough to trade with the likes of Deathstroke he doesn’t win at long range either. His big combos are slow as well (axe). I hope they buff him soon, but it will take more than a few frames here and there. He needs a close range move.


#13

Even with his nerfs as a character (move set) he I still very good. I feel that the nerfs to his damage aren’t enough to detract fron his badass-ery.


#14

Are we playing the same game?
Yes rock is easy to dash through, which is why you don’t mindlessly spam it. It does however beat out almost every projectile from fullscreen (if you both use projectiles at roughly the same time, you will trade, which for 90% of projectiles in this game is in Sinestro’s favor both in terms of damage and who recovers first), completely beats jumps, is a great way to end certain blockstrings (Like Forward M>down L>rocks) not to mention combos into shackles and bullets from fullscreen.
The bullet also beats jumps, dashes and is easy to tack on at the end of combos to get them full screen again. Also you can’t crouch it past roughly 2/3 screen away.
Shackles beats dashes and button presses, but is horribly unsafe on block, so not something to use when they’re within punishing distance unless it’s in a combo.

Oh and comparing Sinestro’s projectiles to Deathstroke’s, Sinestro’s are WAAAAAY safer on block than Deathstrokes. Not sure why nobody ever blocks his stuff, but he is not safe at all.

Sinestro can pretty literally just react to what you’re going to do with his projectiles, forcing you to mindgame him into throwing out the wrong option just to get a bit of distance, then repeating the process until you’re in. At mid range he has lot of good options, many of which start combos and quite a few that are safe on block.

It is true that his combo starters are a bit on the slow side (Axe, forward M, backward M, neutral M, air H, air M, air QCB L, Cr. M, Standing H, etc.), but they’re not unusably slow, and a vast majority of them are safe on block or have very little time to be punished (Slowest one is back L>Forward H, and that’s -9 on block.), not to mention they have ridiculous disjoints. Hell, Forward M>down L appears to even be safe on whiff against a lot of characters so long as the opponent stays grounded, which makes it a great mid-range spacing tool.

I won’t necessarily be sad if they buff him, but I really don’t think buffing him week 1 would be reasonable, especially considering I personally think he’s one of the better characters.


#15

I would imagine so.

Obviously.

MB rocks cancels into shackles. Also it seems impossible to MB rocks if you cancel into it, unlike the others.

Correct, but the projectile won’t push them back full screen at all, even if MB. I know you can’t crouch at distance against it.

because people get tired. They don’t want a game where you have to block successfully every time, then inch forward slightly, rinse and repeat. You can criticise such people, but you can’t blame them for wanting a more engaging experience. That’s why people don’t like it.

That-9 may be wrong, if the frame data in game is incorrect (how they would know, I don’t understand).

They are very slow and unsafe if blocked. You can’t rely on jump ins as a combo starter as well, which is what most of his combos i’ve seen seem to want you to do. That’s never safe.

standing H won’t cancel into shackles unless you use it at the right distance, which is weird. There is something odd in the controls of this game (see above point about rocks) on the 360 at least. There is an inertia which, even without negative edge activated, still haunts the controls. FOr instance I can move to position myself to use d+H (uppercut) and cancel into his spider punch, and all i get is rock!

If cancelling into shackles was more consistent (it isn’t; you can’t just go move, move, shackle, it won’t always cancel) that would help. However his real problem is no wakeup move and his weakness up close. I don’t really care about his damage. It’s just a shame he isn’t as strong as he ought to be.


#16

I think you don’t get it Gwhistler.

  1. Sinestro has the best zoning game.

Rocks = homing overhead, distant AA
Shackles = homing “crumple” move
Fireballs = fast!
Trait = homing projectile, scare tactic.
These moves are all top teir specials.

  1. Combos are solid.

Now I’m not saying OMG WTF soviet damage! But his combos even after the debuff are still damaging enough to be considered strong. Particularly since he isn’t a rush down character.

  1. He isn’t slow.

1,1,1 xx shackles… Just as good as everyone else’s combo starters if not better just because its so easy,

  1. Good mixup.

Overhead can combo into shackles.

Summary:

His move set is good and easily dominates most of the casts. His lesser moves are just as good as the rest of the casts.

In a special note I think that it’s awesome that his wallbounce combos from shackles. This is insanely good considering you can easily get stage transitions in your combo w/o tryin.


#17

I’m going to address significant points in order:

I think the thing with boulder is that you can only meterburn it against grounded opponents, which sucks… I was messing with it to extend combos yesterday and it just doesn’t seem to be doable. I mean you can off of Shackles, but the timing is really REALLY strict.

Tacked onto the end of combos, yes EX bullets does push them back full screen assuming you’re hitting with all 3 and they’re in the juggle state. That being said you can also push them back fullscreen with EX spider uppercut thing or back M>L>H.

As for the Deathstroke thing, this is a debate I have seen in literally every competitive fighting game I have ever played (Been playing them since Soul Calibur 2, so it’s been a little while). It literally takes 3-4 blocks to get in on this character. That’s at most 10 seconds. Now I realize he can mix things up by doing his sword flip or j. H, but all of that hits high so just keep blocking high and you should be good (His crouch shots don’t push you back at all, so unless he’s spamming them I don’t even worry about them). In reality though what good is having a zoning character if he can’t at least attempt to keep people out?
Also keep an eye on Deathstroke’s trait. When it goes down you can completely ignore all of his shots; they all miss.
Now this next sentence is going to sound really condescending, and I do apologize for it, but in reality I have had this discussion about zoners over and over again. Zoners are one of the archtypes of fighting games, and using projectiles to keep enemies at bay is a tactic as old as fighting games themselves. If it is something you consider lame, unfair or simply not fun, are you sure fighting games are the genre for you? If so, maybe you’d prefer games like Tekken or Virtua Fighter?
I know it sounds bad but the thing is some of us enjoy having zoners, rushdown and mixtures of the two. Zoners are meant to be hard to get in on, and rushdowns are supposed to try to get in then stay in. If you don’t like getting in on zoners, then playing a game with them sounds like a really unpleasant experience.

True, the -9 is most likely wrong, but I know a fair portion of the cast can’t punish it at all, and others only with jabs, so it has to be between -7 and -12, and the other moves are all safer (Except j. M). His aerials can actually be made safe by either following them up on block or whiff with a spaced QCB L or by using j. H (Although admittedly his aerials are all meh anyway).

Hmmm… that thing with the spider punch becoming rock seems weird… I assume by uppercut you meant d + M? d + H is the axe sweep. But yeah either way that sounds weird considering uppercut and rocks are opposite inputs. My Xbox playing friends haven’t mentioned that issue though so IDK what’s up with that.

That being said, I do agree that Sinestro has really weird timings. It seems his cancels aren’t that great, and all of his combos are links, some of which are ridiculously strict. The only shackle cancel I’ve found that works is forward M>down L>Shackle, and that timing is even harder than most of the links into shackles!

IDK I’m still messing with his close range game, but it doesn’t suck. His d + L is really good, but sadly it either doesn’t cancel into MB wallbounce or if it does has stupid timing. He also has a really good overhead that starts combos (back M) and a safe on block low that starts combos (forward M>down square, although it does have a slower startup). His standing H is also really good on hit or whiff, and combos into EX bullets to put them full screen again.


#18

Not sure fireballs can be fired as quick as the guns. Certainly not against the AI in practice mode.

Yes, but they have lots of startup frames. B13 is slow to start. According to TYM it’s supposed to cancel into shackles, but it’s a link. Certainly not a cancel, the timing is a pain.

I’m not sure he has a wide variety of effective combos. Most are fine for a few hits, but few can be capitalised on.

I’m not overly bothered by his damage output.

His movement is decent, it’s the speed of his moves.

Not sure that isn’t a link either. You can cancel into spider punch or rocks, but again, for some weird reason, you can’t MB the rock from a combo. It just won’t do it.

If you mean standing H then only if you hit from the right distance. Otherwise it won’t do it.

I would agree, but for the fact that a lot of time you aren’t near enough to hit with it before they break free and block. Overhead into shackles puts you too far away and again cancelling into shackles from bL, M (or H as they can both do it) is a link and a pain in the ass to time.


#19

That may well be the reason.

Spider punch seems more reliable as a means to zone them.

That’s because games continue designing characters this way.

I don’t have a p[roblem with the notion of zoning. I simply thing Deathstroke is excessive. Also as block is the back button you find yourself moving back until you are attacked, so if you block on anticipation you are simply moving back.

I don’t think his aerial moves are bad, I think that jumping is in general an unsafe tactic.

yes.

Neither do I.

Either my controller is weird or there’s something loose in the inputs and it feels like the latter since i don’t get weird glitches elsewhere. It also doesn’t matter what settings I use. Either it’s weird links that are loose, or there are some odd glitches with the controls.


#20

what your guys impression of using shackle and then shackle again to get an untech knockdown?