Sirlin, Low Strong, and a2 gold questions


#1

So what’s the deal with Sirlin’s low strong thing again? It was some footsie pattern but I forgot about it.

Also why is a2 gold apparently “bad”?
There’s nothing wrong with it from what I’ve seen.A new character, reverse cc’s, and hf-like character versions and all of a sudden it’s bad? Wha?


#2

It’s because Sirlin used Rose’s low strong to win the ECC4 A2 Finals against Thao’s Chun. Forcing the latter to try and overcome a single poke that just so happened to have more priority than anything Chun had. He mentions it in one chapter of his book.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/2-the-sheathed-sword.html

As for A2 Gold, the changes: Alpha Counters costing more meter and nerfed CCs just weren’t accepted by the community. As Maj put it, “nerfing everything usually comes off as a lazy shortcut and makes the game less fun.”


#3

I JUST had a conversation about A2 being better than A2 Gold with a friend of mine, lol


#4

Well, for A2, I would say people were too picky. CCs needed a nerf, they were too easy and too strong. Hell, I do not touch the game in years and I bet I would not mess up cr.RH, short Tatsu xn, RH Tatsu or Fr SRK. But still, it needed an arcade port. If it was today, maybe it would be different, but by then, it did need.

Does anyone have a video of that low strong thing? And, while I am at that, of the finals of the USA tournament Valle won, before facing Daigo? I never saw those.


#5

I wouldn’t say CCs are too strong in A2 because they are not the only thing people do with the gauge at high level- If people still use supers and alpha counters, and they do, it means that CCs are good but not too good.
Not to mention some characters don’t have good CCs at all yet they are still good characters. For example Dictator.

A3 visms on the other hand…


#6

Chun and Rose also still ran A2G pretty strong and the low tiers were still the low, it was pretty bad for a rebalance.


#7

heres the footage


#8

nah, CC’s were fucking retarded in a2 because of that valle CC. If someone was standing in your c.rh range, you could CC on reaction, c.rh and it would be unblockable. The further your c.rh, the better your valle CC game was as long as you had a good combo. The simple act of walking in a2 wasn’t safe @ all. Combine that with the fact that the top tiers could murder with CC damage and the overall CC game is pretty fucking stupid. Not to mention that jumpin CC’s could also side step 1-2 hit AA attempts and very few characters in the game had AA’s that could 2-3 hits.

its almost impossible to beat ANY great player in a2 w\o using CC’s. If you shy away from it and only use short short supers or alpha counters, the damage rotations never matchup. Also, if you had REALLY good pressure, the opponent will more than likely try to jump or walk back out of your range and could either fireball to stop jump back or valle CC you when you tried to walk back.

part of the reason why regular a2 was better is because everyone could valle CC so everyone was kind of broken. By rebalancing the way meter worked and removing valle CC, it actually made the worst characters worse and best characters better. You had to do more than just tweak the meter\CC system to balance out the game. Other characters like ken\chun would just dominate because of how good their game plan was even without valle CC.


#9

Even with the Valle CC, you couldn’t really activate based on pure reaction to walking… You could always get baited and lose a whole super bar and maybe also get punished.
At high level it’s actually more useful at other scenarios than Valle CC for example activating a lvl 3 CC in response to a hadouken and the lvl 3 has enough invinc frames so you can walk through it and only then combo. Or as a reversal against throw attempts at 0 range.
Valle CC changed how the game is played, but it did not ruin it and did not became the most dominant tactic.
Alpha counters only cost 1/3 bar, give you a guaranteed hit and knockdown and gave you very good setups while still leaving you the option to CC with the rest of your bars. Also some lvl 1 supers were unblockables at close range which was also a nice tool to have.

You make it sound like Dictator which I gave as an example is unplayable but he’s a very solid character and he only uses his gauge for anti air lvl 1 scissor super and anti air alpha counters.
And another example: Rose’s anti air c.hp into lvl 1 super soul throw is easy and deadly 30%… She uses that a lot.

Hell just look at whatever recent tournament vid.
You’ll see a ton of alpha counters and a lot of CCs are blocked.
[media=youtube]UYgKH5z4LCE[/media]


#10

You can easily activate valle CC on reaction to a walk. I and many others do it pretty often, and yes you can counter CC but not everyone is consistent with it. With that said, I’d even agree CCs are too strong and a2 is my favorite game. Just being real. Being able to end a match of one mistake may sound ST like, but doing a 90-95% damage CC is a bit silly. As others have already said though, that is how the game is balanced, every character can compete because they have access to the damage and it ends up making tiers about useless for this game which is a reason I love it. It’s always exaggerated though that you can’t even walk without getting valleCCed. That happens at lower to mid level vs high level, but not necessary at high vs high level.

Alpha2 gold should’ve just toned down the CC damage, but they actually did a BUNCH of changes that were unnecessary. I’m talking about nerfing characters that didn’t even call for a nerfing. Birdie, Bison, Gen, Sim, etc were all nerfed to make them EVEN WORSE than their a2 counterpart and mostly everyone besides the top 5-6 characters had their CC nerfed to the ground. With valleCCs removed on top of that, it basically isn’t even fair for those characters because Rose/Ken/Ryu/Chun etc were still high tier…they weren’t even touched basically.

As for the Sirlin thing, people just didn’t know what to do at the time. That wouldn’t fly at all in this day since you can just CC the recovery with a tiny bit of practice. You always get a few laughs though when you attempt it, since it probably does work for a few reps, but eventually you’ll get punished for it.

Edit: Bison’s CC just doesn’t do a whole lot of upfront damage, but it leads to his unblockable. Add in the fact that kick AC sets up easy ass CCs, it’s no where near bad.


Scrubquotes is back!
#11

No, this is not true. Walking does not have recovery! Inside the game itself it takes no frames to go from walking to crouch blocking! (If you can move the joystick in 2 frames then the game will do it in 2 frames)
What if I walk for 10 frames then crouch block? What if I walk for 5 frames then crouch block? By the time you reacted to the animation and activated it’s already too late. In the end it’s just pure guesswork on your part, and at high level you don’t see Valle CCs very often because the players adapted and it requires you to make a read that is harder than a 50/50 mixup. That’s why people use it in other scenarios where it has a better chance to actually hit, such after an empty jump since you mix a 0 frame low with a jumpin mid.


#12

Wow, dude, you can deliberately control how many frames your character remains in a walking animation, and force them to CC into your bait every time? That is some sick shit, I bet you’d win every game at Evo with a double perfect, but you choose not to since it wouldn’t be fair. Oh, wait, you only play on paper and have no experience at high level? Ohhhhhhh. Okay.

Sounds retarded, right? Yes. That’s how you’re framing this conversation. You are trying to stipulate a possibility as an inevitability. Yes, you can walk to bait a CC but, just the same, a CC can be done on reaction to the movement, punishing it cleanly (provided they do not Counter CC or do an invincible move on the first frame). We’re not talking about Walking or Crouching having recovery, we’re talking about interrupting an action taken by the opponent.

In an actual high level vs. high level match, two players will be pre-emptively stuffing each other’s Valle CC’s with normals outside of Blowout range, and duck-walking for most of the footsie when one or both players has/have meter.

Log onto GGPO and fight me since you’re so fucking awesome at baiting Valle CC’s. I guarantee it will not go well for you.


#13

damn, tony danza in this mother fucker. He’s da BOSS!


#14

You are contradicting yourself. If it can get baited, but it can also hit, it means someone is outguessing another.
If can you really punish something on reaction, it means you cannot be baited at all!

Yes, you took action by reacting to the walking animation, but you also took a guess that he will still be walking by the time your hand presses the buttons.


#15

you’re not on ggpo trying to bait the Valle CC.


#16

No, I have not contradicted myself at all. I mentioned that it is possible for someone to activate at a bad time (which happens a lot at low-level), but, conversely, if a strong player with decent reflexes sees you walking within their sweep range, you are fucked. We do it to each other on GGPO all the time, it’s nothing. We see each other walking, we activate and smack each other around—which, obviously, is why we don’t just go walking around like idiots. It is completely different from proximity duck-walking, which high level players do not activate into.

Similarly, it is possible to jump at a Shoto, but they can easily DP you on reaction (for free, provided the jumper does not have meter. Even if they DO have meter, you can DP earlier or later if you’re watching the meter game like a hawk). The logic doesn’t get any more simplistic than this.

Talk is cheap. Come fight me or shut your ignorant ass shit up.


#17

yes because an online match is the perfect arena to decide who is right in an argument about high level play in a fighting game


#18

I know what you’re TRYING to say about using supers vs CCs, but in reality there’s only 4-5 in the game that are even worth using. In almost every situation you could have exchanged for a CC for better results. Easy example is your example: c.fp xx air grab with rose for 30%? Could’ve just antiair CCed for 45-50%. Stuff like Tiger canon, Sodom’s 720, Chun’s Kikosho for antiair, combo into Shoryureppa if you landed the shorts, and Soul Illusion are about the only supers that are actually worth using, due to utility.


#19

Mikado tournament a top Jojo’s player won a2 and a Dan player got second.

(this isn’t good a2 play either)


#20

@Anal Talk -

In most cases, your sarcasm would be warranted. However, in the case of A2 on GGPO, everything that works offline works online (provided both players have a solid internet connection with a stable ping below 90ms). You would know that if you both 1.) were familiar with A2 on an intimate level, 2.) employed said familiarity against good players in the A2 room on GGPO; but you elected to inject more stupidity into the conversation rather than staying out of a discussion the likes of which you have no practical, nuanced understanding.