Sirlin.net: "The Anti-Progress Attitude"

You can compete effectively with him, and Kuroda proves that. You can’t really separate character balance from the players that use the characters, especially in 3S, where the existence of parry helps smooth over matchup issues between characters - and so showing a player that can destroy extremely skilled Yun, Ken and Chun players with Q is definitive proof that he is competitive. Same goes for all the pro Uriens, Yangs, etc.

You really have to think of balance as not only a linear description of tiers but a matrix of the tiers at various skill levels. At the lowest and intermediate skill levels, 3S is very well balanced. At the pro-but-not-godlike skill level Yun, Ken, and Chun really pull ahead of everyone else, and when you get to the level of Kuroda, Momochi, RX, Tokido, etc. etc. it’s much wider, with many more characters effectively competing. An example:

http://www.eventhubs.com/images/2009/aug/17/super-battle-opera-2009-street-fighter-3-third-strike-bracket-results/

In the semi’s you have 4 chuns, 2 yuns, an urien, a yang, a Q, and a Makoto. At Evo you had 3 vipers and 2 yuns in the top 8 for SSF4AE. I don’t think 3S stands out as more or less balanced than any other fighting game when you reach the highest levels of play.

As far as Sirlin’s article, I don’t really even feel like it’s worthy of consideration. His core point is obvious - it’s worth it to rebalance an unbalanced game. The argument he fails to make is that 3S is an example of such a game. He just cites common knowledge about balance, and common knowledge in this case is just wrong. Also when he basically says “I don’t care about Japanese play with respect to balance” it’s like saying “I don’t care about Korean play with respect to balance” in Starcraft. It’s just silly. Tacking on a sales pitch for his games at the end was extra classy :stuck_out_tongue:

Anecdotal evidence, sorry.

Anything that disagrees with me or doesn’t give me the respect I so clearly deserve is trolling.

Anecdotal evidence using a 3v3 single-elim tourney as the evidence, no less. I wonder what the results of Japanese singles tournaments at the highest level would be.

Where have you been?

http://www.snk-capcom.com/?p=2857

I see a liberal mix of Akumas, Makotos, Yangs etc. in there. Also, considering the top ranks have gotten more diverse, not less over time, it would lead me to believe that as players are getting more skilled and experienced they are discovering that older thinking about the game’s balance was incorrect. The metagame has evolved dramatically in Starcraft over time, why wouldn’t it in 3s?

I don’t really think Kuroda bodying 11 SBO qualifying players in a row in best 2 of 3’s is a fluke (He OCV’d the first 3 teams and beat the first two characters of the last team that they eventually were eliminated by).

Additionally, unless you think Japanese players love sandbagging the biggest 3s tournament in the world, why would the SBO qualifying teams not be composed of entirely Ken/Chun/Yun if the top players in the world thought they were the most powerful?

I’m pretty handy in a Y-Wing. So handy that I can beat B-Wings! Therefore Y-Wing is still a contender. Replace B-Wing with TIE Defender or Missile Boat for even more factual truth!

It’s hyperbole. Sort of like when I say my shitty car barely does 5 km/h. It actually goes much faster than that. Also like when I said I took a shit bigger than my body; that didn’t actually happen.

This is what’s frustrating me. Well that and the guy who told me to shut the fuck up twice then reported me when I asked him what would happen if I didn’t. That’s frustrating too. Fuck that guy, whoever he is.

People listen to Sirlin? Wait…er, I’m confused.

If you were beating all of the best B-Wings and TIE Defenders in the world, then yeah, you would be. I don’t see how you can define balance in a non-trivial PvP game outside of how people perform using the different game elements?

By non-trivial I mean not RPS or other easily mathematically analyzable game.

I think the Japanese players love sandbagging the biggest 3S tournament in the world.

Tie Interceptor Bespin run if we’re gonna try and go for hard shit.

For real this could have been a interesting thread but the title, stupid Sirlin fanboys, stupid 3S Purist, and everything inbetween fucked it up. I’m gonna play some Rogue Squadron now and try to beat the Trench Run with a SNowspeeder, get at me.

Please tell me you’re being sarcastic.

herp derp?

You know what I’m saying? I’m 38 and stopped playing hardcore in the mid 90s. I still play them for fun when I feel like it.
Back in the day it wasn’t really anti-progress, but it wasn’t put under the microscope 24/7 like it can be now either.CE came out everybody switched off of WW partly due to joysticks and buttons not working.:rofl:
When SF3 all versions came out, I’ll admit I didn’t like it because it was too different compared to SF2.

It’s kind of a dumb question. It’s like asking why SF4 singles tournaments didn’t consist solely of Sagat, or why everyone at the BlazBlue CS II tournament at EVO wasn’t using Makoto. Because sometimes good players don’t pick the best characters. That doesn’t mean they don’t feel like they can win with them, and it also doesn’t mean they aren’t top tier characters.

I chose my example very carefully; in canon and in every game they’ve been in together, the B-Wing is just a better version of a Y-Wing, and the TIE Defender is just a better version of every other ship, and the Missile Boat is just a gimmicky AE Fei Long-type ship that, used right, bodies even the mighty TIE Defender.

That’s all I’m going to say about that.

Okay now you’re just being retarded. No one is trying to say that because Kuroda wins with Q he’s the best, or that Loli can tear shit up with Necro, we’re just saying they can compete on a damn near even ground, which has been proven in countless post here that have either been ignored or constantly replied to with “Sorry anecdotal evidence”.

Specs, stop bringing up Tie Fighter man, making me depressed I can’t play that shit right now.

Balance is different depending on region down to even the meaning of the word itself can change. Saying a game is balanced is basically saying you like the color Blue.

3v3 tournaments just aren’t great tests of character effectiveness. It’s like, yeah look there was a Makoto and a Urien and what not in semi-finals at SBO. There was also a Chun-Li, a Yun, or both on every one of those teams.

If absolutely superior skill didn’t trump matchup problems, you’d have an essentially unplayable game.

Was Hilde not a problem in SC4 because Malek beat Hilde players at Evo 2k9?