Hopefully this will lessen drama
This is a bit of an exaggeration. Theres no need to ban assholes from competing, just dont support or imitate their asshole behaviour.
The controversy around this issue is less about the behaviour itself, and more about how many worms crawl out of the woodwork defending their “traditional perogatives” to behave this way.
If every single non-Aris person was all like, “yeah, that was stupid and wrong, but its not that common and i’ll try my best to oppose it”, then there would be no controversy. Its the people defending such behaviour (even if they dont do it themselves, hopefully?) thats the main problem.
Also, if a person earnestly wants to participate in your scene, male or female, and they get repeatedly perfected, and your response is to tell them to GTFO, then thats probably the single most stupid and counterproductive thing you could possibly do. (well, short of breaking a bottle and stabbing them and yourself whilst screaming pro-tibet slogans). Its pretty disturbing that you would just toss that example in there. So you’re not just advocating being an asshole towards women, but pretty much anyone? And that makes it ok? Do you hope to grow your scene using such a fabulous technique?
Honestly, if some top players are really leaving over this, then you have to wonder whether being an asshole matters more to them than playing the game. But I doubt any are. Your post just sounds like fearmongering “Dont question our behaviours or the skilled players will be angry and leave!!” It doesnt wash, because at the same time you are saying that its only a minority who are actually a problem.
Anyways, my favorite part is " I’m not condoning inexcusable behavior, but as far as earning respect through actually beating human opponents in fighting games and in tournaments how many women have done that?".
Sure, respect for your skills has to be earned, but surely common courtesy and decency is given for free? Or at least “earned” via courtesy itself? (so following this theory, maybe assholes havent earned the right to be treated with courtesy?) Conflating “respect for your skill as a player” with “respect for you as a human being” is pretty deceptive and wrong.
What is a scrub to you? To me, its someone who wants the game to fit their preconceived notions, and complains when it doesnt, or when other people dont play accordingly. The problem behaviour is the complaining part, and thats a social issue. You deal with it socially, calling them out on it, exposing their fallacies, etc. Theres no need to tell these people to GTFO. (STFU is fine :)) If someone wants to -play- like a scrub, but is otherwise well behaved, then that should be fine. More fodder for the rest of us isnt it?
Credibility? This isnt the Olympics. Its not even eSport. Its a bunch of people playing video games. And besides, if (possibly skilled) people are leaving the scene due to assholes as you say, then thats a loss of credibility there too right? Damned if you do & dont. In every other organised competitive activity there are standards of behaviour that must be followed, or penalties will come from the organisers. Even in FGs, I’m sure RL violence, theft, destruction of property, etc are lines that cannot be crossed. There should be no problem shifting the line a bit to other forms of (excessive and blatant) negative behaviour. If you lose one or two skilled players who cant control themselves, so what? Its not like you’re searching for a pilot for the Last Starfighter or something.
So, you just did a paragraph about respect for skill. But either you’re backpedaling from your original point, or you had no coherent point to begin with. I quote:
" I’m not condoning inexcusable behavior, but as far as earning respect…". You’re linking “inexcusable behaviour” with “respect” here. What could you be trying to say, if not implying that someone who wasnt respected for their skills is a valid target for inexcusable behaviour? If that was not your intention, then what is your point? Respect for skill is a completely unrelated topic from “inexcusable behaviour.”
That a female gamer should be able to be called ass at a game without being accused of sexist. Or that a women who is not that good at a game shouldn’t somehow make standards for skill lower.
Calling someone ass at a game because they are ass is not inexcusable behaviour, its fine. If you are accused of being sexist, then justify yourself properly and theres no problem. (calling someone ass at a game because they are female, -that- is sexist.) Excessive political correctness is just as bad as sexism/racism/misogyny/whatever. Moderation in all things.
As for “standards of skill”, wtf are you talking about? Anyone should be able to play, regardless of how bad they are. They just get knocked out earlier, thats the whole point of competition, isnt it? If there are too many sign ups, have qualifying or something? I somehow doubt a tournament organiser would complain about too many signups tho.
As a person who sucks at FGs and generally gets beaten pretty early, I take offense at this blatant skill-ism I have every right to lower standards, even if I am male!
How about we don’t try to hurt people because they’re not great at a video game? Seems like a much stronger approach to the problem.
I.e. A woman who can’t beat randoms is put on a pedestal with top players becuase she is a woman, therefore, you have to work less to be considered a known player. That is what he meant by respect for skill.
and IIthuain, come on. We can’t control that. Tournaments have strict rules on fighting ( a little ironic lol) anything more would mean spending money, and a lot of it. If you are talking about shit talk, then that person needs to get over it, male or female.
I still dont get what you mean. What is a pedestal?! We dont have pedestals at our events, theyre too bulky and heavy to carry around.
Look, if it was something like Anna Kournikova, where she would get tournament invites despite not quite making the grade, then thats understandably sucky (but also understandable since she draws crowds and thus $$$).
But afaik, FG events are not so exclusive that women are taking away slots from others just because she’s a woman or something. You seem to be talking about “attention”, in your “work less to be considered a known player” line. How the fck is that the fault of the woman? Isnt that more because gamers are still lonely nerds so any woman gets more attention, even if they dont want it? Or, to be fairer about it, because there are fewer women playing, they get extra attention due to rarity? Just like how that little kid who played Marvel at Evo got lots of attention. Or if a 90 year old man competed and did reasonably well, he would get extra attention too.
Being considered a known player / getting attention is a seperate issue from respect for skill.
You get attention by being unusual or exceptional. Being skilled is one way of being exceptional. Sadly, being a woman FG player is another way. If we dont like that, maybe we should attract more women into the scene so that its not so unusual anymore.
The stuff you guys are saying (or the OP is saying and you are clarifying for him, I cant tell), is classic misogyny (hate-of-women). There seems to be some sort of resentment going on for phenomena that isnt really the fault of the women themselves. (apart from existing, HOW DARE THEY.)
Sure you can control it. Don’t associate with people who are needlessly hostile.
In tournament settings, people get penalized for poor sportsmanship all the time. I used to play go at a mid-amateur level, and you most certainly could get DQed for being a jerk. I’m not saying a fighting game tournament should be as respectful and quiet as a go tournament, but there certainly can be a minimum standard for behavior that is enforced… we just have to decide to do it. If I was running a tournament, and I saw some guy insulting some other player after he won and it obviously wasn’t friendly, I’d eject the dude.
Personally, I think the change should come from the players, not the tournament organizers. If someone is being nasty and insulting someone, it wouldn’t hurt you to point out their behavior. For the most part, people in FG tournaments are awesome and friendly, but some of them get away with very silly disrespectful behavior, and the general mood of SRK is one of deep and unrelenting hostility.
I dunno, it might be an age thing, but I really don’t see why being a jerk is so necessary for some people.
There was an research paper (it was mentioned in a kotaku article, so take it with a grain of salt), that succeeding competitively tends to make people meaner. This seems to occur regardless of personality (in the experiment, people secretly won or lost due to randomness, so its not like more aggressive people tended to win more in this case.) So there might be some deep animal instinct connecting competitive success with asshole behaviour, dunno. Of course, what makes us human is overcoming our animal instincts, so even if it was true, its no defense.
there sure are a lot of new threads with the letters ‘FGC’ in them lately.
I suppose the change should come from the players, but it isn’t really a massive problem to be honest. I suppose the standard would be Smoothviper (Do NOT throw people’s shit on the floor, the rest was just pent up anger from Noel) Other than that, as long as players are ready to stop conflicts as they arise, i suppose that it is all good.
EDIT: what Shinobi said is what i mean by lowered standards I guess. Getting respect just for being a women is wrong. And no i don’t hate women
I’m completely lost. So, in the end, what is the point of your thread? Are you suggesting we should ban assholes, in some incredibly roundabout way? I guess you could just be thinking out loud and you dont actually have a position on this issue. Please say so if that’s the case
How is this a problem? Like I said, as long as they keep their mouth shut, who cares if they’re scrubs? They turn up, pay the fee, get blown up, and weep bitter tears in a corner somewhere, and then talk crap on forums. Hardly worth excluding them. And it’s completely irrelevant to gender.
What’s the point of this thread? That there are some skilled players who cross the line with their behaviour, and you worry about loss of talent if those players are reprimanded? And if they’re not reprimanded, you worry about the loss of other players who dislike such behaviour? Is this your point?
To me it’s not a dilemma. Joking between good friends is fine, but harassing and hurtful behaviour against strangers or new people is inappropriate, especially if it’s based on gender, race, religion, body type, etc etc. If a person is persistently a problem and being a nuisance, then the organiser and his peers are free to apply repercussions. It’s the same as any other organised group activity. If this means that some players have to moderate their behaviour or get excluded, that’s their problem - since they are the ones in the wrong. It’s just common sense. The FGC is about people coming together to enjoy the game. There’s no heavenly mandate to find the greatest warrior on earth to save the promised land.
- Again, how is this a problem? If a competitior wants to give his opponent a free win for whatever reason, that’s their business, isnt it? The female gamer can get mad and ask her opponents to fight full strength, but that’s also her decision. If someone wanted to give me pity wins, hey, I’ll take them, but that’s me.
Personally if I play people who are much worse than me, male or female, (since I suck, usually these are complete beginners / non-gamers), I usually give them an easy time, try to set up teaching situations and so forth. This is not a problem, and I don’t think you should be bothered by it.
Apologies for my confrontational tone, if you just want to start a discussion, but for some reason I just get a very sneaky, insinuating vibe from your posts. I can’t help but get the impression that you’re linking poor treatment of women, with the fact that they must be scrubs, they get special treatment because they’re women, that they dont deserve “respect” because they haven’t earned it with skill, that they are “lowering standards”. I’ve mentioned / quoted parts where you connect these things, but you never come out and say it. So I am annoyed. Successful troll?
It’s not that people get a pass for having skill. It’s that people get a pass because they are either humorous to the rest of us, or irrelevant. Hardly anyone in the FGC actually gives a damn about racist/sexist jokes. I don’t even think Inkblot does to be honest with you. Up until a short while ago nobody even gave a damn what other communities and media thought of us. We grew on our own, without support, and everyone else was irrelevant.
The only reason anyone cares now is because stream tech and esports have introduced a new devil into the picture: Greed.
Not saying they are wrong for it either. Just laying it out there, cause it damn sure didn’t bother you people a year ago or the fifteen years before that. If there is to be a witch-hunt throughout the FGC to purge itself of all non-politically correct attitudes people need to be honest with why they are doing it and not making up some bullshit about it being not acceptable when it has been for over 15 years. And If the leaders of the FGC want us to start looking in the mirror they better be damn sure they do the same thing themselves.
Maybe in the past gamers were just so far outside the mainstream that noone cared what people thought of us.
But that’s probably not true anymore. Some gamers see other gaming communities getting broad acceptance, and they start to think that maybe they dont have to put up with the stigma anymore. I guess also, video games are a very young hobby. People like me who were there at the beginning of FGs, with SF2, IK+, etc, are now in their mid-30s. If we are still playing FGs, then (probably) we are a little more mature now, and such antics dont impress as much anymore.
I’m sure professional opportunities and “greed” is a factor, but thats not the whole story. Ultimately the world has changed, technology has changed, people have changed, attitudes have changed. The old standards maybe wont work anymore.
The number of people coming out to defend the actions of Aris defies that logic. The comments made on the WFN stream defy it as well, and no parties involved made any apologies whatsoever until they were either punished or threatened. Those are not real apologies.
We’ve been growing every single year, on our own. The standards that birthed the FGC have held intact just fine.
The only difference now is that a few people see opportunity and are placing that as a priority above the community’s (the established community, not the non-existent ones they are dreaming up in their heads) own interests.
But, y’know, let em do what they want. Nothing anyone says is going to effect the way I play or act. Honesty first though, this PC bullshit is 100% motivated by greed. There is no other factor.
Well, the number of people attacking the people defending Aris, at least shows opinion is not unified on the topic.
I’m sure it comforts you to demonise those people who disagree with you, as having impure motives to call out your bad behaviour (apparently - since you’ve decided to plant your flag on that side of the fence.) But if you cant see that such behaviour is generally frowned upon in normal adult society (and yes, assholes still exist and it still happens anyways) then I envy you for your lack of social awareness
I don’t go out of my way to be an ass. It’s not in my personality to make a ton of racist and sexist comments, not how I was raised. I know people that do though, and I know the difference between humor and hatred. It’s not “my” behavior that needs defending.
The FGC is not “normal adult society” and never has been. If you confused the two, then I envy your lack of social awareness.
I’m not going to demonize any of the community leaders for being greedy and throwing their values and obligations out the window (which is their right) anymore than im going to demonize Aris for being the epic douchebag that he has been for years (which is his right). I am, however, going to call them out on being exactly what they are.
Greed was always there even when the pots were smaller, The only difference is that now that pots are larger and the events are being broadcast.
Like I said the behavior has more of an external effect on the community, but the lowering of skill, has more of an internal effect, also a lot of people inside the community are friends with each other; so people outside of the community seem to be less conflicted on the issue of singling out the behavior because they could give a damn about the legitimacy of competition issue and they have no personal relationships with the people in question.
Best post in thread.