So how is it that you guys want this to go anyway?


So a little background that everyone already knows:

Vanilla SF4 was a heavily defensive game with fireball based zoning being very very effective overall. Dmg was heavy so even basic stuff like fireball trap jump over get shoryu’ed could pay off heavily in dividends. So small wonder that the best guy is the one who does the most dmg out of this situo and has incredibly useful fireballs[Big life totals etc kinda help]. Near the end of the life cycle we caught a glimpse of the things to come however with akumas vortex…

Super comes out and the whole vortex thing has come full swing. Ibuki joins in the fun and a couple chars move up to offensive beasts. Defensive chars, however, didn’t back down and we saw the advent of one of the strongest guiles ever along with chars like chun/honda who simply would not give these offensive powerhouses a chance to use their mettle. This is what considered the ‘balanced’ game, not in terms of characters but in terms of archetypes. Hence the propensity to have secondaries around here. Follow me…one more stop.

SO, AE hits. And now we have what is basically offense distilled into guesses. 3 characters have all offensive options[1 has ALL OPTIONS PERIOD in addition to the most invincible move in the game which potentially changes ANY situation into a 50/50 and a double guess with meter]. 5-6 have completely ambiguous crossups with the ability to do them again in the event that you got hit by it[generally safe if not] and several bypass conventional zoning and footsies. So that’s where we are, complete 180 from Vanilla.

Why do I even bring this up? Because I hear a relatively loud cry for no nerfs to Yun/Yang/Fei and general buffs to everyone else. But I think a point has been missed. How did it come to pass that the ‘best char’ made no showing? I think the major reason is that his wakeup has actually turned into a major liability compared to those with many options out of vortexes vs the one. This basically hammers home the point of what the game currently is. Hard knockdown, safe ambiguous beastings. Super jump flame kick. There’s another game like this actually - Marvel. Now not too take anything away from any of the players, but basically I’d think to make someone like Guile viable again, his sonic boom basically has to be EM Disruptor with the crazy stuff going around. So what do you guys think. Should the game just go up and up til everyone has the craziness like marvel lite? Fuuko has proven that intelligent play can still make this work on some level. Or is it time to bring it back down to earth and start differentiating up the cast again. I’ll make my opinion clear - I think its time to bring this game back. It doesn’t play much like SF anymore in my mind. I think the perfect example is Sim. He no longer works in this game at all anymore. One whole style of play is just useless.


Honestly I can’t understand what you wrote. I mean can you actually read it back and comprehend it? I don’t usually grammar police, but this is just a mass grave of words in no discernible order.

I agree with OP, though, SF was never meant to be a blitzy game like Marvel, and I don’t get why it’s trying to be. Or why people even like that. Defensive characters aren’t even viable AT ALL. In Super you had maybe 5 characters that you couldn’t use seriously because of their major balancing defects. What’s that number in AE? 20? At least half the cast, that’s for sure. And it’s not because they’re bad against each other even, it’s just because the top 5 characters simply dominate the metagame.

I really hope that balance patch comes sooner than later.


They will be nerfed

overly safe moves and too much damage for some characters is not something the community is going to develop and solve over time (ask Sean from Third Strike).

They will be nerfed. The evidence is absolutism irrefutable from top to bottom. The question is how much brings them back to the field


I suppose I rambled a bit much even if the first post is practically an article, just saying Yun and Ibuki are not much of offense. Yun’s safe lunge punch is the only reason for at least half if not more people who use that character. Ibuki would be significantly easier to beat without that cross over throwing kuni trick. As for damage or frames, that’s all worthless, it’s only bad when there’s too much or too little, the only important thing would be options as to what a character can do. Getting rather sick of 40% of the roster being clones, 50% being charge characters.


The whole concept of “vortex” in relation to SF4 is ridiculous. When did that buzzword even come into play?


Didn’t Sabin coin it while was in Japan? I don’t see why its ridiculous anyway.


It refers to rushdown mixups, yes? (I could be mistaken here)


More or less. I’m under the impression it refers more specifically to the heavily weighted wake up mixups that some chars have. Like when Akuma knocks you down he can go for both sides, demon palm into low, or demon flip. The other half of it is that its self repeating hence the ‘vortex’ nature. If any of it lands you’re going to the bottom [repeat the mixup]. If it doesn’t its GENERALLY safe. Additional stuff like messing up reversals optional.


Right… and in comparison to many other games… the mixups in this aren’t that serious…
That’s why I personally think it’s a ridiculous term to be associated with this game, whether or not Sabin said it.


Vortex used to refer very specifically to Akuma’s options on an opponent wake up. As in sweep, grab, demon flip with all finishers, cross up, all that shit. Vortex was only used for that very specific situation. It then leaked into anyone else’s oki game which then lost meaning. Akuma does have a stronger set of tools on an opponent’s wakeup so maybe a term for it is appropriate. Others not so much.


See, that makes sense.
I hear this term used in every aspect of the game, including ambiguous crossups and such… As an overall game… this game is really light on the mixups and I really don’t see how that term fits it.


mmm, actually I’d debate whether or not the mixup in this game is as severe as other games. In all FGs, the way to hit someone is sidexside high/low throw, right? So the above mixup is about as severe as any game will allow +1 for the air throw. Chars like Seth add Cmd Throws to mix so…;Other games might be much more visually confusing about it or allow for difficult to block mixups much more frequently [Marvel] but also allow for certain things that can help negate them. [air blocking, push block, assists, etc]. If you’re saying its generally harder to block then I would say that Vanilla T6 DJ is the hardest character to block in FG history. But I think the term vortex is apt here since SF4 doesn’t let you do much to escape the mixup except guessing correctly and more tellingly that its self repeating so it ‘sucks you in’. No need to get hung up on a term in any case.

Edit: Too all the above, yeah maybe I’m part of the problem. I consider a situation a vortex any 50/50 [or more] that repeats itself on connect.


I think you’re confusing “vortex” and “mixup”

This game is 4 ways to block, throws, and command throws.

Other games have all that, plus unblockables, guard breaks, guard crush / other similar devices, that all penetrate through and you have to be cautious of. There’s more than just “hard to block” things.

You mention things in Marvel… I assume you thought I specifically meant Marvel. I don’t know much about Marvel 3, but I’ll say this in Marvel 2…

Air blocking is a double edged sword. It’s good for things, but you have to watch out for guard breaks if you’re not in super jump mode. Also, character-depending, being in the air severely hinders your mobility.

Assists have to watch for being miscalled. In MvC2, you miscall, they eat a shit of damage or double snapped and die.

Pushblocking can prevent you from getting guard broken, but that in itself is a 50/50 because you do it at the wrong time, and your character stops blocking and is EASIER to guard break.

Things like auto corrected DPs in SF4 help avoid ambiguity to some degree, though not a tremendous amount, it still does. There’s also the fact that things are randomly invincible in older games, that if you’re not savvy to, you’ll get eaten for. Example, in Super Turbo, Blanka’s… his entire leg is invincible. You can easily bait a DP, and bust up Ryu’s face for it.

Many more variables, albeit, many more RANDOM variables, in other games.
(note, I didn’t say “older”)


True, I was only aware of the etymology of the term and simplified it from there. I’ll admit I’ve never played a game seriously with a guard meter/usable unblockables/etc so I’ll freely say that yeah, maybe my concept of blocking is a bit simplistic. I’ll just end my thoughts with the statement that the offensive top rushdown chars are difficult to guard against effectively, yes?



but just so you realize, that’s not limited to SF4.


from my understanding Vortex is actually more specific. vortex is a mixup off of a wake-up situation that aims to create another wake-up situation. Akuma’s demon flip AND his extremely combo-able sweep are the reason this metagame developed for him, and I believe it deals with various setups associated with wakup games. So I suppose any character that has a good mixup and a good way to score utk’s can have a vortex-centric metagame. I guess Ibuki and Abel qualify. A rushdown character that has good mixup options doesn’t automatically qualify to be able to do vortex, since they don’t get any real setups off of a knockdown and usually have to restart their offense.


This reply also makes a lot of sense…
See, I came into this thread hearing that word thrown around all crazy, and I’m thinking that “Vortex” and “mixup” are the same thing… which makes NO sense at all.

Also, HuffmanD - my bads for quoting your post in the scrubquotes thread… I actually quoted the wrong post.


^^ it’s all good, I actually wasn’t aware of a thread like that, so I’m gonna start following it. so thanks, I think? :wgrin:


I’m giving up on this section of the forum after this post because people are just ignoring shit or pretending it didn’t exist. Offense was really dominant in Vanilla and Sagat being top tier actually had something to do with it. He could keep you out all day and do big damage from zoning, sure. However, most of his stupid shit stemmed from what a threat he was up close on top of being great at zoning. TK loops for days. 50-70% FADC combos. Supreme frame trap ability and would keep you locked down with the threat of his good pokes and TK. Sagat’s only bad match up? Akuma, who was even *more *dominant on offense and could blow through zoning. I think you mentioned how Seth is apparently bullshit in AE, I can’t really tell. Well, life must have sucked for you during Super and Vanilla. Super Seth had all the options and the same rush down he does now (slightly better, in fact, because his dive kick had more block and hit stun.) Quite literally the only thing you see with AE Seth does better in is damage and live a little longer. But what about Vanilla? Oh, Vanilla! A teleport which recovered so fast only your fastest normals could punish it. An Ultra trap that was essentially unavoiable. An even better jumping limb attack. Crazy dive kick that stuffed everything and was faster. Higher stun. Higher damage. Rufus and Viper were pretty amazing in Vanilla too. Super made defense viable. Saying Vanilla was all about ‘big damage and zoning’ is basically only true if you look at how tier lists were established back then. The options were there. I bet Cammy could have been incredibly scary and who knows what Poongko today would look like with Vanilla Seth. I agree that AE is a slight step backwards from Super but Vanilla was just fucking annoying to be honest.

I forgot the point I was trying to make, probably something along the lines that offense was always a threat.


Yes let’s make Ibuki worthless and boring like everyone else since she is such a powerhouse and domniates the majority of the cast. ass.

You’re skill level at this game is obviously quite low. Take that shit to gamefaqs.