So You Wanna Fight Dirty? The Dirty Bull Thread!

balrog

#1

With the introduction of a Grab Ultra there has been a lot of excitement, disappointment, and confusion about Balrog/Boxer’s new Dirty Bull. I myself, upon hearing it was a grab ultra that could be jumped out of after activation, thought there was no way possible for it to be a viable selection. After some thought, many people speculated dirty setups to bait out a poke, tech, or punish from their opponents to enable them to land Dirty Bull.

I personally don’t like the random factor. I like to eliminate that as much as possible due to the random nature of the game already. I decided to take a new aproach to this ultra and really think about how this can be used consistantly. This lead me to believe that this ultra is used for reversal purposes rather than offensively.

I have compiled a list of characters that Dirty Bull may be debatable as to if it is the better choice over Violent Buffalo.

A quick note on the mechanics of this ultra. Think of it like Akuma’s Demon - but you don’t move foward. The start up on this move is 1 frame. It will punish anything that is -1 assuming you are in range.

Note: No fireball characters are listed. I am assuming you are able to do Dash Ultra 1. Ultra 1 is crucial to boxer vs fireball characters (except for Guile). A general rule is if the character throws a fireball you most likely want Ultra 1.

Note 2: This list does not mean that Ultra 2 is necessarily better than Ultra 1 in these matchups. I am not saying Ultra 2 is better. In fact I believe Ultra 1 will always be the preferred choice during competative play. However, if you are playing casuals with friends and messing around these are important notes to remember to make your opponent eat dirt.

Dirty Bull can reverse the following on block:

Abel
[LIST=1]
[]Change of Direction (any)
[
]Wheel Kick (any only when cornered)
[
]Cr. Fierce
[/LIST]
*Note that Dirty Bull will lose to both Abel’s Ultra 1 and 2 if you reverse animation activate

**Adon **
[LIST=1]
[*]Jaguar Kick
[/LIST]

Balrog (LOL!)
[LIST=1]
[]Smash (any)
[
]Straight (any only when cornered)
[
]Upper (any)
[]Overhead (any)
[
]Headbutt (any)
[]TAP (Any)
[
]Super/Ultra 1
[*]Ultra 2 (animation reverse activation)
[/LIST]

**Cammy **
[LIST=1]
[*]Spiral Arrow (any)
[/LIST]

Cody
[LIST=1]
[]Ruffian Kick (any)
[
]Criminal Upper (any except ex due to it pushing you back too far)
[/LIST]

C. Viper
[LIST=1]
[*]Flame Kick (Grounded) (Any)
[
]Thunder Knuckle (any non-ex) (Upper is hard due to it being airborne)
[
]Seismic Hammer (any)
[/LIST]

Dudley
[LIST=1]
[]Machine Gun Blow (any)
[
]Short Swing Blow (any)
[/LIST]
*Note: He can do almost nothing once you have Ultra. His specials will be punished and his pokes are not as good as yours. :rock:

Guy
[LIST=1]
[]Hozanto (any)
[
]Bushin Sepukyaku (short and forward only. Roundhouse and ex will whiff.)
[*]Run ? Shadow Kick
[/LIST]

Hakan
[LIST=1]
[*]Oil Slide (any)
[/LIST]

**Juri **
[LIST=1]
[*]Senpucha aka Pinwheel Kick (any)
[/LIST]

Makoto
[LIST=1]
[*]Hayate (any)
[/LIST]

M. Bison
[LIST=1]
[]Slide
[
]Stomp + Ultra 2: Psycho Punisher (You don’t reverse these. You neutral jump and Ultra upon landing.)
[*]Scissor Kick (Any meaty except for short)
[/LIST]

**Rufus **
[LIST=1]
[]Messiah Kick (any except for a roundhouse followup)
[
]Galactic Tornado (any *must be deep.)
[/LIST]


#2

reserved.


#3

What is this… I don’t even. That ultra is like the greatest troll ultra ever.


#4

damn some characters cant do anything once balrog has ultra 2 cries


#5

Ironic how the dirtiest techniques in Boxing are most viable against other boxers


#6

Awesome! I was planning on putting a lot of work into proving the pessimistic players wrong about U2. You beat me to it! Speaking of which, I can not dash into Ultra 1 for some stupid reason.


#7

good finds defitnatley makes sense, but if u get hit with that shit ima run away, and without a heavy dmage ultra what will b balrogs max punish damage ?


#8

I’m loving this! I want to use the ultra but don’t know of any viable situations. Keep up the good work! Balrog army unite!


#9

Thanks guys. Right Now it is looking like a very attractive decision to go U2 in the mirror match and against Abel. I previously thought Duck + Follow up in a Dudley match was punishable but it seems inconsistent. Perhaps it is corner only.

I should also add that DBull will not grab punishable moves if they hit with just the tip (such as Balrog’s punches). Obviously if Balrog hits you with just the tip of the glove he’ll be too far to grab. However, what can be grabbed is blocked j.rh, cr. jab, cr. jab, cr. short, dash punch. This bnb combo can be punished every time.

Please feel free to test these out and ones I haven’t posted and reply with what you find and I’ll be more than happy to update these posts. My tests are not fool proof and I’m sure I made a mistake somewhere. If you guys have additional info maybe we can find a way to make this ultra actually amazing :slight_smile:

Well consider a few things. Dirty Bull does 300 damage, which in Super SF4 is actually a significant amount with the damage nerfs across the board. A standard bnb combo into ultra will most likely only get you 50-75 more damage than that.

However, lets talk about the stun factor. it lands you 700 stun by itself which is equivelant to about 1 1/2 to 2 combos. This means that for the majority of the cast all you need to do is land the Ultra + 1 combo. Sure, if U2 is landed the other guy is going to start playing super tight defense in order to reduce his stun meter. But what if we landed a big combo first then hit someone with our U2? That means they are already stunned.

The best case scenario is that we hit them with one huge combo; they in return retaliate but we punish them with U2 resulting in a stun. If we hit them with another big combo we are looking at 80% hp punish in (basically) two combos.


#10

Has anyone good at armor canceling tried armor cancel dirty bull? Seems hard (impossible?) to do by had, but that would be the dirty of the dirty.


#11

That would be entirely possible if tool assisted. However, it’s too fast for a human to do (I would think!). I’ll start adding Guaranteed and Gimmick setups to this post as well.


#12

Purely theory fighter, but I think there’s a way to do it:

If you have back charge and are in any state where-in you can’t immediately initiate an attack (knockdown, hit/block stun, attack recovery), buffering a 360 motion will theoretically register as a dash punch unless Capcom did something funky with their input buffering. It might be possible to do something like:

charge back. Rotate almost enough to register a 720, PP/KK, finish 720 motion + PPP.

EDIT:
Might have to use KK to be safe, because PP might accidentally select headbutt if you also have down charge. You can also buffer a complete 720 motion, so lang as you don’t hit 3 punch buttons the first time, you’ll register a dash punch output.

Dammit, I really can’t wait for tuesday…


#13

Actually it is kinda true, because sometimes when mashing out a 720 I’ll get a random ex special or even a super. I just don’t think I’d be able to get it down. Definitely in the realm of possible. The risk is wasting meter or accidental headbutt and eating a big punish.


#14

If you’re doing this in reversal, it means that your opponent has the momentum. If he has the momentum, it means his stun is low/none, which means that you’ll have to find some setups AFTER Dirty Bull to do the extra stun you need, which, considering the distance after the ultra, will be hard to actually hit. I tried U2 in lots of matches and in all the times I connected it, I never got a stun out of it, and only once or twice I managed to get to stun my sparring teammate after it, as he knew he was about to get stunned and played accordingly.


#15

That’s pretty much what I’ve found Kane Blueriver. Since I pretty much know the ins and out of Violent Buffalo, I’ve been solely using Dirty Bull to see how it can be utilised. One setup I did manage was to do it on wakeup as someone crossed me up and I managed to grab them.

The whole point is stun them with the ultra and then land one of balrog’s devastating combos. Not just land the ultra only for the ultra damage. That’s why it’s best served to use it when you’re pressuring them. That’s why I’ve been trying to only use it when I’ve pushed the opponent near the corner which is balrog’s most favourable position on the stage so I can easily pressure the opponent without letting their stun tick down.

And this is just my two cents, why does rog have to shrug his shoulders like that after the ultra? You just stunned the shit out of them, get in that ass!


#16

I hope I get proven wrong as Dirty Bull gets to use more but right now I think that it is terrible in competitive play and only useful as a gimmick. With that said, here are my findings with testing this crappy ultra. It has 1 frame startup because it can punish rufus’s fierce galactic tornado (which is -1 on block) if he does it deep and this only works in the corner. Ryu cannot do his standard safe jump Option select (sweep, into hold u/f for early as possible jump into jump RH buffered with dragon punch or other move depending on situation) The dirty bull grabs the recovery frames of his jump. Even if the ryu empty jumps he cannot hold up to escape the dirty bull. he will get grabbed. What I don’t understand about the dirty bull is why didnt capcom make it 0 frame startup like gief’s ultra or at least give it decent grab range. If it was 1 frame startup but at least had decent range it would be a much more useful ultra but right now you need to be kissing distance to grab them with it…

i’ll check this thread once in a while because i really do want a reason to use this ultra but right now it’s just not good enough…


#17

its really hard to justify using this ultra :frowning:

the only char i would use it against somewhat consistantly is vs dudley so far :confused:


#18

I was actually waiting for some confirmation on this as well because it can grab ex. smash during it’s recovery as well (which is also -1). I’ll update!


#19

not sure if anyone thought of this yet.

jab,jab,short, upper, whiff, u2. (crouching opponents only)


#20

this is a very good one actually. since crouching opponents have less frames to escape. well done! Also considering how a lot of people like to do c.MP into ex rush upper this is a good mix.