Some THC frame data compilation


#1

Ammy-Doom is seeing popularity as a THC option, and many players are showing several other clever THCs, but even still this mechanic remains very poorly explored. Using the frame data from the guide, I’ve put together ordered lists of frame data for various aspects of THCs. This topic should hopefully help people try to construct powerful THCs by finding quick to execute hypers for point characters and long lockdown hypers for back-up characters and pairing them. I’ve also included a list of pre-freeze times which should be the start-up time of your THC.

Some of the values given in the Ultimate guide are a bit iffy or flat out odd and I just used the values from the vanilla guide in these cases since they were on hypers that I didn’t know of any changes to. The moves in question are Sentinel’s Plasma Storm (no way this move has variable active frames; that wouldn’t make any sense) and Hsien-Ko’s Chireitou (variable advantage, in particular the chance at +18 on block for a move like this, I just won’t believe). I’m kinda dubious of the “change” in Tenrai Ha as well from -17 in vanilla to -6 in ultimate, and I don’t know which version of the guide is mistaken here but am assuming the Ultimate guide is right given that it is a newer version. Given the obvious lack of effort put into Hsien-Ko’s section in both guides (in the author’s defenses, she’s pretty bottom tier in both versions), I really don’t trust any of her frame data so please take Hsien-Ko’s placements on all lists with a grain of salt. Some other data values are kinda odd too like Shuma-Gorath’s Hyper Mystic Smash which definitely has a variable frame advantage depending on the random ball pattern and except in the corner is definitely much more advantageous than the flat -42 the guide lists. The guide seems to assume corner situations for several hypers that drag the opponent along; Magneto-ay is definitely not a ridiculous -68 if every hit of the shockwave is blocked. Unfortunately, these just have to pass for now; it already took me a few hours to sort through everything carefully and in-game testing is just not in the cards with the hundreds of combinations possible with dozens of hypers interesting enough to have some argument of warranted testing. Three specific cases are so odd as to have made problems forming the lists, and those are marked with askerisks and have explanations below.

Speed of hypers post-THC freeze:

First number is total frames until character is finished, second number is frame advantage of the hyper (mostly listed for my own convenience, useful to everyone as a more negative number will represent a smaller window during which pushblocks will blow back the point character). This list is sorted by total commitment and should be most useful to identify which characters will have the most time to move around as point characters in a THC.

Trish-ab (29, +a lot)***
Phoenix Wright (39, +57)
Felicia (47, -26)
Doctor Doom-y (48, +35)
Hawkeye (51, -29)
Captain America-ay (58, -23)
Spencer (63, -37)
Super-Skrull-y (64, -11)*
Dormammu-y (66, +18)
Jill (70, -3)
Super-Skrull-ab (73, -22)
Viewtiful Joe-ay (73, -52)
She-Hulk (74, -48)
Doctor Doom-ab (75, +2)
Morrigan-a (75, -45)
Doctor Strange (76, -26)
Strider (77, +6)
Hulk-a (78, -11)
Phoenix (82, -38[-35 dark])
Storm-ab (82, +7)
Iron Fist (83, -14)
Firebrand (84, -25)
Sentinel-ab (85, +15)
Captain America-b (88, -26)
Morrigan-by (92, +14)
Wolverine-a (95, -17)
Akuma-b (97, -22)
Magneto-ay (101, -68)
Dormammu-ab (103, -21)
Ryu-b (104, -8)
Storm-y (104, -42)
Sentinel-y (107, -8)
Frank West (109, -35)
Haggar (110, -53)
Nova (111, -18)
Spider-Man (111, -25)
Hulk-y (114, -25)
Thor-a (117, -71)
Arthur (118, +16)
Tron Bonne (119, +24)
X-23 (119, -29)
Zero (119, -14)
Wolverine-by (120, -10)
Taskmaster (122, -22)
Wesker (124, -20 to -30 pretty random)
Chun-Li-ab (125, -32)
Akuma-ay (127, -20)
Magneto-b (129, -4)
Chun-Li-y (137, -26)
Trish-y (137, +2)
Hsien-ko-b (139, -6)
Ryu-ay (139, -12)
Thor-by (145, -35)
C.Viper-a (146, -74)
C.Viper-by (152, -99)
Shuma-Gorath-by (152, -42)
Chris-by (153, +?)**
Deadpool (156, -20)
Viewtiful Joe-b (156, -32)
M.O.D.O.K. (157, -30)
Iron Man (159, -47)
Vergil (174, -59)
Shuma-Gorath-a (175, -88)
Hulk-b (179, +13)
Ghost Rider (180, -42)
Rocket Raccoon (188, -15)
Amaterasu (192, +1)
Hsien-Ko-ay (194, -22)
Dante (232, -14)
Nemesis (235, -58)
Chris-a (241, -31)

Advantage of hypers post-THC freeze:

This is just the sum of the two numbers from the first list, and characters near the top of this list should be the most advantageous to have backing up a THC.

Dante (218)
Chris-a (210)
Amaterasu (193)
Hulk-b (184)
Nemesis (177)
Rocket Raccoon (173)
Hsien-Ko-ay (172)
Tron Bonne (143)
Trish-y (139)
Ghost Rider (138)
Deadpool (136)
Arthur (134)
Hsien-ko-b (133)
M.O.D.O.K. (127)
Ryu-ay (127)
Magneto-b (125)
Viewtiful Joe-b (124)
Chris-by (116 or more?)**
Vergil (115)
Iron Man (112)
Chun-Li-y (111)
Shuma-Gorath-by (110)
Thor-by (110)
Wolverine-by (110)
Akuma-ay (107)
Morrigan-by (106)
Zero (105)
Sentinel-ab (100)
Taskmaster (100)
Sentinel-y (99)
Phoenix Wright (96)
Ryu-b (96)
Wesker (94 up to 104 this hyper is random)
Chun-Li-ab (93)
Nova (93)
X-23 (90)
Hulk-y (89)
Storm-ab (89)
Shuma-Gorath-a (87)
Spider-Man (86)
Dormammu-y (84)
Doctor Doom-y (83)
Strider (83)
Dormammu-ab (82)
Wolverine-a (78)
Doctor Doom-ab (77)
Akuma-b (75)
Frank West (74)
C.Viper-a (72)
Iron Fist (69)
Hulk-a (67)
Jill (67)
Captain America-b (62)
Storm-y (62)
Firebrand (59)
Haggar (57)
C.Viper-by (53)
Super-Skrull-y (53)*
Super-Skrull-ab (51)
Doctor Strange (50)
Thor-a (46)
Phoenix (44[47 dark])
Captain America-ay (35)
Magneto-ay (33)
Morrigan-a (30)
She-Hulk (26)
Spencer (26)
Hawkeye (22)
Felicia (21)
Viewtiful Joe-ay (21)

Fastest hypers to reach THC freeze:

Iron Fist (3)
Magneto-b (4)
Spencer (4)
Captain America-ay (5)
Haggar (5)
Hulk-y (5)
Hulk-a (6)
Hulk-b (6)
Tron Bonne (6)
Akuma-ay (7)
Chun-Li-ab (8)
Doctor Doom-y (8)
Dormammu-ab (8)
Felicia (8)
Hawkeye (8)
Phoenix (8)
Rocket Raccoon (8)
Viewtiful Joe-b (8)
C.Viper-by (9)
Strider (9)
Wolverine-a (9)
Chris-a (10)
Chun-Li-y (10)
C.Viper-a (10)
Dante (10)
Doctor Doom-ab (10)
Doctor Strange (10)
Jill (10)
M.O.D.O.K. (10)
Morrigan-a (10)
Phoenix Wright (10)
Sentinel-ab (10)
Sentinel-y (10)
She-Hulk (10)
Super-Skrull-ab (10)
Super-Skrull-y (10)
Taskmaster (10)
Wesker (10)
Captain America-b (12)
Firebrand (12)
Frank West (12)
Akuma-b (13)
Deadpool (13)
Ghost Rider (13)
Hsien-Ko-b (13)
Ryu-ay (13)
Wolverine-by (13)
X-23 (13)
Magneto-ay (14)
Arthur (15)
Chris-by (15)
Trish-y (15)
Zero (16)
Amaterasu (18)
Morrigan-by (18)
Nemesis (18)
Ryu-b (18)
Shuma-Gorath-by (18)
Storm-y (18)
Viewtiful Joe-ay (18)
Nova (20)
Shuma-Gorath-a (20)
Spider-Man (20)
Thor-by (20)
Trish-ab (20)
Thor-a (24)
Hsien-Ko-ay (30)
Iron Man (30)
Dormammu-y (31)
Storm-ab (40)

*Super-Skrull-y relates to Skrull Torch, a steerable hyper with variable recovery based on how high off the ground Super-Skrull is upon completing the move. I’ll admit that I honestly don’t know what the numbers are when you can’t steer it and I’m not even sure if you can steer it if you activate the THC with Skrull as the point character, but a neutral path from a grounded Skrull Torch should only be a few frames slower than steering it into the ground for an instant landing either way. This is an important odd case since Skrull-y is on the better end of THC starters.

**Chris-by relates to Grenade Launcher, and for some odd reason, the guide doesn’t list the advantage on block, but at the very least it will hold them for 116 frames which is the time until active frames end (it’s unclear to me if this number means when the upward grenade finishes execution or when the last horizontal hit does). The actual time this hyper holds opponents will be somewhat longer than this, perhaps significantly longer, and this hyper may be decent as a back-up hyper in a THC.

***Trish-ab relates to Round Harvest. The guide doesn’t list frame advantage for this hyper, but it’s pretty clear that it’s ridiculously massive (maybe as high as +100). For this reason I didn’t even list it in the second section since I have no way to group it in an even remotely appropriate fashion. This hyper is a total outlier to the point that I can’t even begin to evaluate its value in a THC situation.

This took me a long time to put together. I could go on to analyze many interesting things, but I’d just point out that yes all the new to Ultimate characters only have one THC hyper for some reason and no Trish-ab and Phoenix Wright aren’t as advantaged as they seem since the dynamics of those hypers on block involves repeated pushblocks which kills their ability to move in. Otherwise, I think it’s best to let the data speak for itself and let you guys piece together any clever combinations. I hope this topic is helpful for that!


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#2

Would have been better if you sorted the character order one way or another, but I can’t really complain since you went through the trouble testing this out. Good work!

EDIT: Oh wait, it IS ordered by the most favorable values to the least favorable. Thought it was ordered randomly. XD GJ again!


#3

Excellent, really appreciate the work. Time to get looking at those numbers I guess…

Another massive part of THC’s is whether the ‘backing up’ hyper is a true block string or not… but that is for another day!

EDIT: Ummm it is sorted isn’t it?


#4

I like it.

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#5

Would have prefered you to order the first list by length of the hyper. Still, thanks!

EDIT: Ahh, that’s wha tthe second list is for.

gonna be real helpful for Frank, that’s for sure.