Some things about empty jumps

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
#1

I noticed that Japanese players rarely empty jump -> throw. However, some other people do and I’m one of them. The first thing I wanted to post is how I do it, which I thought was pretty neat. Don’t know if other people do it this way, but I haven’t seen it anywhere. What I usually do is jump in and tap forward for a parry, input throw, then tap forward again. I time it so the throw is just when you land. The idea is if you input the throw during the parry freeze (and your character doesn’t have an air throw) nothing will happen. If you don’t parry something you’ll land and throw, but if you do parry something the second tap forward parries again for slow multi-hit anti-airs like Ken and Gouki’s dp’s or Ryu’s EX dp. If you want a non neutral throw you can also do forward, back+throw, forward.

The other thing I wanted to post was something I thought of a long time ago but haven’t put into practice. It’s basically a defense against the guessing game around deep jumpins and empty jumpins followed by an immediate throw. If I input a parry and a follow up and they empty jump, then they land before my follow-up hits and are able to throw me. If I guess right that they’re trying to empty jump yit’s possible to punish big and even do cmd grabs as AA’s or jump straight up for a full jumpin combo, but it’s way risky obviously. Another option is to just block and tech if you see them land without sticking something out. One more option would be to parry > throw by default. The problem I have with this is that if it’s not a super deep jumpin I often do the throw too early making it whiff OR if it IS a super deep jumpin they can land and tech the throw which is infinitely annoying. I’ve seen YSB and a local Hugo player even do super deep body splash into insta-land 720. So anyway, what I came up with is a variation on SGGK. Input parry, then kara-throw using whatever move you want to AA with to kara into throw. If they attack and you parry the normal you did first will come out and hit, if they empty jump you will usually tech their throw (if that’s what they’re doing anyway). I say usually because the big problem with this technique is that if they are slow with throwing you or you do it too early, it is possible for them to throw you out of the start-up of the move you’re kara-canceling. This technique benefits characters with launcher type normals a lot because they can follow up with a juggle. Like the twins into (close) MK~LP+LK or Ibuki with (close) HK and Oro with (close) MP. This technique also loses to empty jump into low attacks.

So, opinions on practicality? novelty? gimmick? am I being silly?

#2

Its nothing knew what uve posted, its a common application of SGGK, especially to characters like chun and Oro. Use it, its good.

As for your first method of parrying on jumpin and landing with a throw attempt, its not very clever at all, theres are way too many ways for it to be foiled. The first one is for them to simply choose between AAing you high in the air, or practically once uve hit the ground (fierce shoryu of kens would work, for example). The first parry attempt you do wont cover both instances of antiair - and im guessing that your second parry attempt wont parry anything at all unless the first parry actually parried something, if u see what i mean. You cant mash forwards to parry stuff obv.

Then theres low meaties like shoto cr.mk as you land, what ure suggesting would lose to this big time, tho yes it is a bit of a gamble. But way more easier for the opponent would be to just walk back as you land, and THEN do a cr.mk. Theyd have walked back far enough for your throw attempt to whiff, plus your parry inputs would do nothing, and its extremely safe for them, cos if you happened to do a jump in attack, theyd simply block it.

But yeah your second idea is just SGGK, and it IS really useful.

#3

Um are you insane? Really? Japanese players empty jump and throw ALL THE TIME!

#4

IMO Oro’s SGGK is overrated because of how shitty his neutral throw is.

#5

I disagree, but then again there isn’t much to discussing this unless either of us have a transcription of about a hundred matches. From memory I believe I’ve seen a lot more simple variation between depth of jumpin than actually empty jumpins. The only reason I said it at all was as a disclaimer, to ensure everyone that I’m aware what I’m about to post isn’t universally applicable. If you’re right, then it is, and I’m even happier.

Awe, not clever AT ALL? dang… anyway, this “simply choosing” you speak of doesn’t detract from what I said. Simply because there is a way to counter it doesn’t make it useless. You did read the part about SGGK as AA and you said that it was useful, in that same paragraph I say it loses to empty jump to low attack (for example). In much the same way I’m not suggesting the jumpin parry>throw>parry is perfect, I’m just saying if you were going for an empty jump throw, that’s a relatively safe way to do it. Yes there are counters for everything, I get it. Counters don’t mean you should stop doing something, it means you should be trying to be less predictable. I know it’s not the same thing, but your argument sounds like “all people need to do to counter short short super is to parry low” which of course, no one would say low parry DOESN’T counter it, it’s just you won’t convince anyone (I hope) that short short super is therefore unusable.

Yes, that’s the whole idea. The second parry attempt is also irrelevant if you managed to land safely since you’ll have input the throw.

Doing a low meaty move counters any type of air-parry attempt since they won’t likely be crouchblocking when they land, and yes it counters my idea too, I won’t argue with that. I’ll just refer to what I said before. Also, walking out range is akin to blocking any possible jumpin the attacker would do. If I’ve managed to instil that kind of fear/caution into my opponent I would consider my tactic a great success :lol:

#6

You can SGGK with parry, back+MP~LP+LK

#7

So basically zenfire, you take my previous and take it to pieces and use virtually the same argument for each one? “this counter existing doesnt mean its not usable”, yes obviously, but when theres so many different ways to defend / punish against your idea, surely those 3-4 different counters means you’ll never be able to prepare for all of them. That combined with the fact that a lot of time all ull get is a throw, Id say the risk-reward ratio really does NOT work in your favour at all. Sure its a tactic, but its insanely dangerous hence not very wise.

Yeah you can just do bk.mp for oros sggk, but I cud argue that oros neutral throw does actually have a lot of tricky uses, though it is very character specific.

EDIT: I think MODs right, dont forget he is IN Japan atm.

#8

No, I used exactly the same argument twice. :wonder:

I think you’re misinterpreting the scope I was implying. The number of counters to it doesn’t factor in to my decision whether or not to do it (speaking for myself here) nor does the ease of those counters. Fact of the matter is, I’m GOING to occasionally not do a jump in attack and land and throw to mix it up. So if I’m going to do it, why not make it so that I cover two bases instead of just one? By that definition it’s an option select, and I can’t think of a reason not to do an option select unless there is another that takes care of another more likely alternative etc. etc.

To put it another way (I’m sooo bored I don’t mind typing): the reason I’m defending the parry>throw>parry thing is because you dismissed it as being easily countered and therefore “not clever” (that still stings, dang). However, the counters you mention as well as others I can come up with all apply to a “normal” empty jump > throw as well. So saying that the technique is likely to fail and therefore:

Is saying the same about “normal” empty jump > throws, which according to MOD even the Japanese do “ALL THE TIME!”. Then again, he also thinks I’m “insane”.

#9

ugh, thread rating system FTW!

#10

empty jump is only really useful for character with pressure supers(like Genei-jin and Aegis) or as a finisher when they have low health.Throw does low damage plus they could just spam jab/walk under.

BTW when do you get to do this?in my experiences I rarely see chances for this unless you hit them with a super in the corner and you can’t cross them up(which is better than empty jump IMO).

#11

with any character with a high priority shoryu…

empty jump > shoryu

works every time.

#12

ZenFire: my attempt at it:
How many people do you think do empty jump in throw? How many you think in Japan have been whoring that? It’s all been done, and these guys simply tech it or counter it.

And then as ESK mentioned the counter mixup to empty jump in throw(not high priority shoryu, but throw invincible shoryu mind you. That excludes Dudley’s normal uppercuts) gets into play. This being really great against guys that like to tech throws.

There’s the tiny problem of actually successfully jumping in and once you’ve actually managed to jump in and get next to your opponent, he actually has the advantage, since you have to move from your landing frame while he can attack sooner. And if you whiffed a move in the air or it got parried he gets a free punisher.

So what you attempt will do like 20 damage unless you have a command throw and your opponent is stupid enough to get hit with it. That means they didn’t attempt a throw or attack themselves. What you can receive is a full infinite from makoto because she can time the command throw to your landing and if you attempted a throw you’re simply fucked. Or you attempted a shoryuken type attack that gets blocked(also 20 damage) you still receive the command throw + followup. That’s worst case of course, Ken can only steal about 60 life from you while Ryu can steal 80 and Yun merely gets a genei-jin starter.

Now that’s when the opponent decides to stay in place, the opponent can also backdash allowing only air attacks to reach him and parry forward or anti air. That turns the risk for him to very low since even if you parry his AA, you’re out of range to do any good damage with most characters and you’re pretty much on the verge of eating any form of damage.

Note that the above doesn’t say you shouldn’t use it, it’s merely a risk/reward analysis. But remember that the japanese keep this in their heads while playing and they rather don’t do empty jumps unless they are sure the opponent will not be able to counter it. Examples are jumping over slower moves like Yun’s s.HP or Ken’s c.MK. If Ken did c.HK you’re able to punish with a jump attack with all shotos, dunno about the rest of the cast.

#13

Thank you! That post basically sums up exactly why jump in throw is so dangerous, if you choose not to listen to what i said earlier, then listen to the above post, cos it nails your argument completely (or almost).