Spider graph "tier list"


#1

EDIT 10-31-11

**Split the reversal and AA categories, changed the ratings for health and changed “health” to “endurance”, added description for viability, split characters into U1 and U2 ratings. **

Just a little something I threw together. The data is very suspect as I am a casual player; or a scrub if you like.

I plan on requesting in each character forum for input on ratings in each categories, ideally a single representative from each forum will present me with the general consensus.

Discussion of each characters ranking should be limited to the post I make in each forum. Discussion on categories and their precise definition will remain here.

As it sits now I have the following measured on a scale of 0-5:

U1/ U2
Each character will have separate ratings for each Ultra, as far as the charting process is concerned they will be handled as separate and unique characters. This will allow for direct comparison between a character with both Ultras but keep the data legible.

Endurance- Stamina + Stun / 2

Endurance breakdown:
0.0 = 800
0.5 = 850
1.0 = 900
1.5 = 925
2.0 = 950
2.5 = 975
3.0 = 1000
3.5 = 1025
4.0 = 1050
4.5 = 1075
5.0 = 1100

**Reversal **

rated 0-5

AA options
rated 0-5

**Note the following breakdown section was written when the reversal and AA ratings were grouped together, use as a rough guideline. **

Breakdown:
0 = Normals are less than ideal as AAs and are highly situational. No real escape options. Reversal is EX dependent, and is likely the best AA as well.
1 = Same as above but with one area greatly improved or two areas slightly improved.
2 = Same as 0 but two areas greatly improved to average but one still flawed.
3 = Average in all three areas, or slightly above in two but lacking in one.
4 = You see the progression here. May lack an escape option but has very reliable normal AAs, better than average reversal that can be used in many situations, EX improves options.
5 = Pretty much all bases covered. AAs for most all situations, reversal limits options for opponents, EX adds combo or Ultra possibilities to AA and or reversals.

Zoning - More than just chucking plasma at people. Also the ability to deal with counters to the above. Controlling the opponent at mid range with pokes and dealing damage from mid to long range with specials or normals.Thoughts?

0 = Crap. Think Dan with no EX.
1 = Limited high risk options, likely EX dependent.
2 = Lacking in at least two of the 4 above mentioned scenarios, decent in the rest, or one glaring weak area.
3 = Average in all areas, or a balance of faults and strengths.
4 = Excels on one or two, not quite balanced to average by the others.
5 = All areas above average, excels in one or two.

**Rush down **- The ability to get in from mid distance and deal damage up close. Hard knockdowns, keeping the opponent close while still dealing damage, countering or neutralizing reversals are all important.

0 = Not many options.
1 = Poor risk reward.
2 = Some 50/50 or high low mix up but has trouble getting in.
3 = Same as 2 but no troubles getting in, or excels in one area but can’t get in easily.
4 = Excels in all areas, significant part of game plan.
5 = Offensive options cut down many options from significant part of the cast. Generally dictates the flow of the match.

Mix up - Similar to above but not so dependent on closing the gap. Think long range characters that combine projectiles with fast long range normals or special, such as Dhalsim and Seth, or hit and run characters such as Ibuki or Elf.

0 = Predictable or no real viable options.
1 = Poor options that require glaring mistakes of the opponent.
2 = Reliable but limited options.
3 = AVERAGE.
4 = REALLY DAMN GOOD!
5 = HOLY SHIT!

**Damage potential **- The ability to deal damage. Not just total numbers but in varied scenarios, off of lights, AAs, trades, close, mid, far. The ability to maintain the idea distance, punish whiffs from any distance, and stun output.

0 = Crap tier.
1 = Still crappy.
2 = Decent damage output but under limited conditions, or low output with the ability to create opportunities.
3 = Average.
4 = A fucking powerhouse.
5 = Vanilla Sagat!

Viability - I simply assigned a number value to each rating given by Mago, Daigo, Tokido then averaged. Not the best thing in the world but it is what I have at the moment.

Obviously none of the fighting game vernacular has been centrally defined so there will be contention over the usage of phrases and the like, so let us not waste time splitting hairs over that bullshit.

Instead lets focus on descriptive phrases to define the various categories. I’m open to suggestions so long as there is a concise argument, and it maximizes the usefulness of these charts.

You will notice the lack of “footsies”, my thought being that they are rolled into the various categories. I’m a bit on the fence though. It might be useful to add that…

A few other categories I am considering:

**Noob friendly/ Ease of use/ Complexity **- Pretty self explanatory. All characters require complex strategies to be competitive but some require them, and or high execution, just to compete against other beginners.

Thoughts?

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2461/adonmak.jpg

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Charting character stats, need Rose help
Help me pick a main in SSF4:AE
Charting character stats, need Rufus help
Charting character stats, need Sagat help
Need help charting character stats, T.Hawk input needed
Need help with claw, charting character stats
Charting character stats, need help with Yang
Charting character stats, need help with Gief
Need Hakan specific input for charting character stats
Charting character stats, need help with Ibuki
Juri input needed for character stat project
Need Ken specific help for charting character stats
Charting character stats, need help with M.Bison
Charting character stats, need input on Oni
Need input on Honda to chart character stats
Charting stats, need input on Elf
Charting character stats, need help with E.Ryu
Need input for Fei, charting character stats
Need help charting stats, Gen input wanted
Charting character stats, need Guile input
Help needed charting stats, need input for Guy
Need input for Balrog to chart character stats
Graphing character stats, need C.Viper input
Cammy input needed for charting character stats
Charting character stats, need Chun input
Need help charting character stats, Cody input needed
Charting character stats, need input on Dee Jay
Charting character stats, need help with Dhalsim
Need Dudley specific input to chart character stats
Help charting character stats, input on Ryu needed
Graphing character stats, need help with Seth
HALP! Compiling character stats, need input for Sakura
Help a Blanka out
Charting character attributes, need input for Yun
Input on Makoto's abilities
How does Gouken stack up? Help with stats
Charting character stats, need help
Needs some help, Saikyo brethren
Help with charting character stats
Need help with comparative character graphs
#2

Reserved.


#3

Character specific threads I’ve started, limiting this until I have all of the categories and the like hashed out:

Abel: Need help with comparative character graphs
Adon: Help with charting character stats
Akuma: Charting character stats, need help
Balrog: Need input for Balrog to chart character stats
Blanka: Help a Blanka out
Cammy: Cammy input needed for charting character stats
Cody: Need help charting character stats, Cody input needed
Chun: Charting character stats, need Chun input
C.Viper: Graphing character stats, need C.Viper input
Dan: Needs some help, Saikyo brethren
Dee Jay: Charting character stats, need input on Dee Jay
Dhalsim: Charting character stats, need help with Dhalsim
Dudley: Need Dudley specific input to chart character stats
E.Honda: Need input on Honda to chart character stats
Elf: Charting stats, need input on Elf
E.Ryu: Charting character stats, need help with E.Ryu
Fei: Need input for Fei, charting character stats
Gen: Need help charting stats, Gen input wanted
Gouken: How does Gouken stack up? Help with stats
Guile: Charting character stats, need Guile input
Guy: Help needed charting stats, need input for Guy
Hakan: Need Hakan specific input for charting character stats
Ibuki: Charting character stats, need help with Ibuki
Juri: Juri input needed for character stat project
Ken: Need Ken specific help for charting character stats
M.Bison: Charting character stats, need help with M.Bison
Makoto: Input on Makoto's abilities
Oni: Charting character stats, need input on Oni
Rose: Charting character stats, need Rose help
Rufus: Charting character stats, need Rufus help
Ryu: Help charting character stats, input on Ryu needed
Sagat: Charting character stats, need Sagat help
Sakura: HALP! Compiling character stats, need input for Sakura
Seth: Graphing character stats, need help with Seth
T.Hawk: Need help charting character stats, T.Hawk input needed
Claw: Need help with claw, charting character stats
Yang: Charting character stats, need help with Yang
Yun: Charting character attributes, need input for Yun
Gief: Charting character stats, need help with Gief


#4

Reserved. As it sits now I think the health needs attention. The gap between Akuma and Dan is greater than Dan and Ryu but the chart gives the opposite impression.


#5

Dude, what?


#6

I like graphs.


#7

…and I’m bored at work.


#8

Gouken 4 1 4 2 2 4

hahahahahahahaha

ya, try more like this
4 1 2 1 1 2

There’s a reason he’s bottom tier.
Reversal: Wakeup sucks, his only good reversal got nerfed
Zoning: With no far two hitters, unsafe armor breaker, and slow startup on normals and specials, it simple to just walk forward till you can counter hit him
Rushdown: What rushdown? Flip kick after hard knockdown? easy block and usually escapable by anybody with an escape.
Mixup: What mixup? an overhead chop that leads to nothing, a throw with a huge tech window and excessive wiff frames, and flip options that are all beat by jump back fierce.
Damage Potential: Sure, big numbers, but only with a +5 in his face or a +6 at distance. In other words, only if the other guy makes several massive mistakes per round.

Gouken: Fun against noobs, crap tier against anybody who knows what they are doing.


#9

I really like this idea, visuals are always nice, but you’re gonna always run across people who don’t agree with your numbers. if you want this to have any credibility, instead of you making the numbers, you should get the opinion of some good players from each character so you can get a more accurate graph.


#10

What do you do for a living, market analysis? Was that close?

Anyway you could add “Quality of normal moves” rating there, Because that is really essential for some characters, like Bison.


#11

Played against your a few times on pc. i think i beat you once.

To add something to this thread. this reminds me of the graphs from mvc3. I like that.


#12

wow… uhh…

Lots of work here…


#13

It looks like you’re utilizing RPG character sheet logic, which seems like complicating something very simple (character type)…or trying to bypass something more complicated (not having to deal with match up data).

I think it’s great that there is a new way of looking at the issue, but I don’t see it plugging in for a match up heavy game. Besides…categories two, three, four and five are all the things people debate endlessly about in the normal tier discussions anyways.


#14

Sosage, I’m trying to gear this towards the novice and intermediate players, and for somewhat experienced players that are new to the game but may want a quick resource to identify which character fits the play style they prefer. I’m aware of the constant semantic nonsense, I think I’ll change all of the headings to try and avoid that.

How about:

Health
Defense
Ranged offense
Point blank offense
Offensive options
Damage potential

I personally don’t care about a character’s viability. I play what I find fun. I’ve been playing rush down characters since Vanilla, and now I’m a bit bored with it. Trying my hand at Gouken and it is fun. It only took a day to see how flawed his character design is, not just the typical whining of forum goers. So I decided to put this together…

Rockman, I never played MVC3 but I remember the spider graphs from Ridge Racer!

Onemanarmada, I think your suggestion would be “footsies”. Which I can add as a category if people think it is better as a stand alone.

Ruhit, I am slowly making a thread in each sub forum asking for the advice from top players that contribute. If there are any noteworthy tourney players willing to give their input that would be ideal.


#15

I assume this is your life’s work because that’s how long its going take to make this relevant.


#16

Sosage, as far as MU numbers go I was thinking of adding a match up offset number from the get go but as many people disparage the tier lists I wanted to distance this project from them. But maybe I’ll add that to the list.

I didn’t feel like wading through threads and the like to find the more accepted list to use. If someone can provide me with a link to a list that uses the ratio format I can make this happen.


#17

The only problem with this is that you’re trying to quantify things in number rankings that can’t necessarily be quantified that way, or are subjective.


#18

Yet movie ratings exist. Grains of salt will be needed but I still think it will be a valid resource for the intended audience.

Also, I’m attempting to achieve some sort of community consensus with the numbers, skewed towards the more knowledgeable players. My hope being that their knowledge and understanding of each character in the context of the entire cast and the game engine, and the larger meta game of match up knowledge will allow for them to give reasonably reliable ratings.


#19

Well I’ve always been against giving those sorts of things numerical scores as well. Simple like or dislike and whys are much better review systems than trying to quantify things with a numerical score.

Not saying that this isn’t interesting though. I’d like to see what the community comes up with as far as these scores go. Though I can just see the thread after the results are posted:

“Balrog having a better pressure game than Bison? Are you retarded?!”

Such is SRK.


#20

Me too, oddly enough. I take nothing from a starred movie review without checking several others from the reviewer to determine a “curve of credibility”. So maybe my doing this isn’t odd. I’ll be involved in all of the discussions so I hope to increase my knowledge of each character’s strengths and weaknesses.

I fully expect a large number of bickering posts as well as plenty of people telling me I’m wasting my time. They can all suck it.