SSF2THDR Balancing & Flowcharts


#1

Yep, I’m a n00b who sucks at SF, but I’ve been a gamer all my life; but let me get to my point.

I played SSF2THDR steadily since its release and I don’t feel I can progress. I win 55% of my fights. I use Chun. I’m an average player, so I feel I can make an observation. I noticed something, and it may or may not be true, or it’s already known. I took note of why I win/lose. Chun has great tools. Problem’s she relies on metagame, punishment, and theoretical strategies. In practice, nobody is 100% evenly skilled and mistakes are made by both players. That’s where the fault lies.

Example: Sagat can scream “tiger” till he’s blue in the face and Chun has to predict and dodge, and wait. How is this fair?

When I win, my foe stumbled. When I lose, he didn’t. That, or our skills were varied, or had bad matchups.

Tell me, SRK, despite the tier data and charts, in practice, how do you escape the corner VS say, Sagat, Akuma? It seems to be a gambit each time.

&b4 locked and flamed


#2
  1. Akuma is a broken character, you don’t even have to worry about that matchup, and if you usually play vs akuma players, let me tell you that you’re playing vs scrubs, turn the page and look for true competition.

  2. Chun-Li vs Sagat is a 4-6 matchup in gat’s favor IMHO, but you can beat gat with chun, chun has a fast walking peed and you can take advantage mixing chun’s walking speed with well timed safe jumps attacks and use chun’s fireballs vs sagat’s fireball preasure, i’m not a chun player so a chun player can give you advices in that matchup.


#3

It’s like you knew I’d be drinking something when I read this. Barely didn’t spray my monitor, lol.

The best thing I can tell you about those situations…practice something until you find it works for you. That means practice escaping them, and also avoiding them. SFII is so position-dependent that even a few pixels mean the difference between a soild trap, and getting poked or stuffed back out.

You should also study the character threads on both the HDR and the ST forums. Here is an example of some strategy versus Ryu and his solid fireball game.


#4

Fighting against Sagat depends on how well you’re able to build meter. You need meter in order to even begin to fight against Sagat, otherwise, you’ll take too much damage and commit to too many risks in order to get close to him. Once you have meter, you’ll have a way to break past his tiger shots, land the knockdown, and rev up your offense. Even in the corner, you’re able to build meter by doing SBK in the air, match his fireballs with your own, and so forth. It’s not an easy match, but it’s definitely winnable, so long as you pick and choose your point of attack.

Akuma is just a BS character and poorly balanced.


#5

Thanks guys. I’m familiar with the posted links and tactics, and I know that even Zangief can technically beat Akuma despite tier listings (I’ve seen it) but I just think Chun Li has to work a little too hard, and never slip. Ryu can use one too many Fades, y’know but Chun seems to need each move to count.

Look at her fireball’s recovery time & distance and her upkicks’ poor startup. At least these issues should be helped to give her a more equal playing field against her weaknesses, so she can have some room to breathe. It’s not like it’d make her the new Akuma.

Also, for a character that relies on meter so much, she gets it slower than say Ryu, or even Ken. And people are well aware of her dependancy, so they can revolve their match around provoking a waste. Obviously the solution is not to but I guess what I’m saying is that’s easier said than done.

Does anyone agree or am I alone on this?

My PSN’s SSj4_Ryuk, in case anybody wants to play.


#6

You don’t need meter against ryu to win, its just icing on the cake. But you have to play with balls. You need to do all your fighting on the ground. don’t fucking jump. period. only jump straight up and down over fireballs, but even then, its better to just take the chip. Landing on a fireball will fuck your whole shit up. it gives ryu time to position himself into a sweet spot to fireball pressure you. You need to walk up and poke the shit out of ryu with cr mk or stand mp. cr hk if you can, cuz if you knock ryu down your chances of winning improve by a huge margin. You MUST get all up in ryu’s face and don’t let up. 4 successful pokes usually equal dizzy if you are poking him hard and fast. or if you are feeling really ballsy, you can land to quick cr mk pokes and go for a stand hp to dizzy.

Point is, don’t fuck around with fireballs, just rush. You’re not trying to zone ryu out. Only throw slow balls so that you can use that as a shield to walk up to get in his face. Once you get in that point blank range, start poking ryu with the tip of you cr mk.

here. do like this guy.


#7

I lol’ed.


#8

A good player can beat anybody despite tier listings. Tier listings are more like a subjective indication of character strength at HIGH levels. Unless you’re playing at a high level, tiers mean very little to the average player.

Chun isn’t going to win any zoning wars with her fireball, but it helps to maintain spacing while building meter, as well as makes for a great meaty fireball on wake-up. This coupled with her strong ground game, fast walk-speed, and good normal anti-air use, makes her a pretty strong character.

She doesn’t depend on the super in her matchups against the shotos. It is important not to jump so much against a good Ryu, and learn the ranges at which you can react to a fireball with a jump attack and kick him in the face. Learning how to neutral jump over the slow fireballs and put on the ground pressure on Ryu is extremely important. Ryu has difficult dealing with Chun’s pokes, and having to deal with her frame traps and tick throws.


#9

In HDR, yes. In ST? Geif ain’t beating Sim, Blanka or Honda. Hawk and Sim wave the white flag against Cammy, Blanka sucks in general unless you are AFO, and the entire non plasma chucking cast will struggle mightily against Honda (which is returned 10-fold when Honda fights master plasma chuckers).


#10

Yeah…anyway, there’s truth to what you say. Unpredictable moves can be worthy risks, & rushing works sometimes, but highly skilled uppercut-types can shut you (or at least me) down 9/10 with those tactics. If I play with max concentration, don’t slip, and play the clock, and punish cleanly, I got higher odds than your advice. ^I know any match is doable, my point’s why’s Chun screwed in areas? Like arguably the worst fireball and no forward-moving attack like other charge characters. The fake hadou screws me up at closer spacing during heated firefights with Ryu, Sagat’s fireball game is madness, and Ken flies far with Fierce SRK, closing Chun’s jump range even more (again, obviously prevention is key but still) She’s got tools but they need sharpening. I’m an ok Chun cause it’s uncommon I lose mirrors. My conclusion’s I suck VS other chars or she’s screwed. I say 80% suckage, 20% disadvantage


#11

Can’t edit for some reason. I meant to for two “^” and a jump to space two paragraphs there.


#12

Use whatever works for you, in the end, its what you feel comfortable with.

The reason I play the way I do and have success with it is because I take advantage of chuns strengths. She is fast, second fastest character behind claw. Cr mk and stand mp are among the best pokes in the entire game. When you go hard and fast, it doesn’t give time for the other guy to come up with a plan to counter. ST and HDR moves quick, if you get dizzy, then you die. If a ryu player is throwing out shoryu’s to try to stop you, perfect, bait that, run up and grab him. In that position, ryu will do more damage to himself whiffing DP’s then to you.

You asked for help and thats my advice, but if you’re going to knock it before you try it, I can’t force you to do anything.

If you want to see how the best chun players in the world do it, look up videos of otochun and nuki on youtube. They are literally the worlds best chun players in ST, otochun plays HDR now as well. Good luck man.

PS. Studtrooper: Snakeeyez’s gief can still beat high level honda, sim, and blanka players in ST. I’ve seen him do it at super arcade. Look out for him at ToL, because DGV has a supergun setup to play on game pad.


#13

Snake-eyes might need to be put into a separate category. Heh, when I was in LA in may I stopped by Super Arcade with a buddy of mine and no one besides me was touching the SF2 cabs at all :frowning: SF3/SF4 was on fire though…

Thought it was weird how the Jap sitdown cab had sanwa buttons on one side and seimitsu on the other lol.


#14

Random, Chun despite all the nerfs is still one of the best characters in the game, she’s in my opinion in HDR part of the Big Four(Boxer, Claw, Sim and Chun), just like in ST.

Slow Fireballs?, chun doesn’t need to zone their opponents to win, of course you have to use your fireballs to beat your opponents, just mixing fireballs with footisies, normals(chun normals are very good).

The upkicks are uselful too as an antiair, you just need to learn the right timing to be safe, i don’t know a damn about chun’s frame data, but as far as i know in HDR, chun has better upkicks than ST chun.

Follow Papercut’s link, Otochun is the best Chun Li player in the world. and i suggest to you that you follow all otochun vids.


#15

They are exactly the same as in ST with the exception that they were modified so you can’t get more than one juggle with them (sometimes none depending on the circumstances) after a super. So technically, they’re worse but they really are the same. The only thing you really got to remember is that only RH upkicks can’t be safejumped, so like Ken you have to have supreme confidence in your one button reversal capability if you choose to go that route.


#16

Again, tiers are only applicable at high levels of play. Plenty of strong Giefs can take down mediocre Dhalsims, I’ve seen it with my own eyes. It is definitely a tough matchup, but Gief just needs a single chance to get in.

Even Honda can fight off fireball characters if he adopts a strongly reactionary playstyle, and pick-and-chooses his attack points carefully. While there are bad matchups in the game, none of them are a wash.

Unpredictable moves can be worthy risks, but why take unnecessary risks? Risks are only necessary if you’re losing a round against a solid player, otherwise you’re just playing reckless and foolish. If you’re constantly jumping and getting uppercutted, that’s not a worthy risk, that’s just playing dumb. And Chun has some weaknesses in her game, but overall, she can handle even her worst matchups fairly well, and is widely regarded as being a highly ranked character. Her super alone counts as one of the best forward-moving attacks in the games, and you’re able to store it, which largely contributes to her high-tier status. She doesn’t really need a forward-moving attack, her fast walkspeed combined with her dominating normals already gives her an edge on the ground.


#17

I thought we were talking about high level play. Isn’t that how tier lists are composed?


#18

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Chun, Claw and Sim have clearly been weakened in this new game, while guys like Gief, Hawk, Fei and Sagat have been give powerful new attributes. Even Cammy is much more of a force to be reckoned with now.

You can watch all the old Oto vids you like: hardly any of that stuff translates to HDR. She can’t even seem to land a well placed cross up mk any more, let alone pathetic damage on supermove follow-ups. The ‘big four’ featuring Chun arguably only really existed in Japan, on ST, when Oto was playing anyway. Most of the time outside of that, you’re talking Dic, Ryu and O.Sag (as well of course Boxer, Claw and Sim), all three of which (Sag now just regular) are still seriously badass in HDR.

I really enjoy my new, random Birdkicks in this game, hell yeah -stone faced sarcasm-


#19

otochun still plays HDR and still owns. Everything I can do in ST, I can still do in HDR. Plus against hawk in HDR, chun has a new tool that completely changes the match up.

HDR chun can just jump back and run, if hawk trys to dive in close teh gap, chun can jump back and lands a 3 hit combo(jump mk, cr mk, fireball) combo. once chun gets to the corner, she can wall jump, stomp hawks head, then bird kick to fly away. This is super effective. It makes this match up really shitty and annoying for HDR hawk.

Trust me, this match in ST is much worse for chun then it is in HDR.


#20

Lol at point break thinking hdr sagat is more powerful than st old sagat