This thread is meant to <b>discuss</b> and post tier information for SSF4 AE 2012. The old thread was getting large and was originally meant for Super, and then AE.<br><br>Updates:
<br>-Added the SRK character usage analysis (5/31/2014)
<br>-Added GamerBee’s March 2014 tier list (5/22/2014)
<br>-Added Alioune’s February 2014 tier list (5/22/2014)
<br>-Added Alioune’s tier list (10/17/2013)
<br>-Added Justin Wong’s tier list (5/3/2013)
<br>-Added Itabashi Zangief’s ten worst characters (2/26/2013)
<b>What is a tier list?</b><br>
A tier list is a method of ranking and grouping characters based on who has the most/least advantaged matches. Historically, this has been done through a matchup chart where, given two players of equal skill, each character plays every other character in a set of 10 games, and see who wins most. So in a “6-4” matchup, one character would win 6 games, and the other would win 4.<br>
<i>Tier lists are subjective and evolve over time</i>. The point of this thread is to discuss this information.<br>
<b>What tier lists aren’t:</b><br>
-A popularity list<br>
-A list of characters YOU have a hard time against<br>
-A personal assessment on what kind of person/player you are<br>
As long as you at least understand what these lists aren’t, you will save yourself a lot of headache.<br>
All the tier lists here come from “organized” sources. These are neither my list nor Joe Blow random’s. <b>If you know of an organized tier list that should be here that is missing, please let me know and I’ll add it. </b>
This thread is meant to <b>discuss</b> and post tier information for SSF4 AE 2012. The old thread was getting large and was originally meant for Super, and then AE.<br><br>Updates:
SSF4 Tier List Thread REBOOT Super + AE (Updated: 02-01-09)
Now that we've seen some USF4 Changes, Who Do YOU Think Will Be Top?
Here are the tier lists:
SRK Community Tier list (updated November 2012):
High: Cammy, Akuma, Seth, Adon, Fei Long
Mid: Abel, Honda, Viper, Makoto, Ibuki, Rufus, Sakura, Balrog, Guile, Ken, Vega, Yun, Blanka, Ryu, Chun Li, Rose, Juri, El Fuerte, Sagat, M. Bison, Cody, Gen, Dee Jay, Guy, Dhalsim, Yang, Evil Ryu, Zangief
Low: Dudley, Gouken, Hakan, T Hawk, Oni, Dan
(thanks Emanuelb for organizing this)
Latest Eventhubs Community Tier list, March 2012:
Top: Seth, Viper, Cammy, Akuma, Fei Long
Mid: Everyone else
Low: Oni, Evil Ryu, Hakan, T.Hawk, Dan
Gamerbee’s Tier list, circa March 2014:
Within tiers, order does not matter.
S+: Fei Long
S: Akuma, Cammy
S-: Adon, Yun, Oni, Sakura, Evil Ryu, Ibuki
A+: Seth, Sagat, C. Viper, Gen, Makoto, M. Bison, Ryu, Ken, Balrog, Juri
A-: Rufus, Rose, Yang, Guile, Gouken, Dudley, Guy, Cody, Vega
B+: Abel, Blanka, T.Hawk, El Fuerte, Chun-Li, E. Honda, Zangief, Dhalsim, Hakan
C: Dan, Dee Jay
Alioune’s Tier list, circa February 2014:
Within tiers, order does not matter. I renamed the letters to avoid writing "SS"
S+: Cammy, Akuma, Sakura, Adon, Fei Long
S-: Sakura, Adon, Fei
A+: Makoto, Seth, Gen, Ibuki, C. Viper
A-: Balrog, Ryu, Evil Ryu, Oni
B+: Ken, Rose, Sagat, Yun, Juri
B-: Guile, Rufus, M. Bison, Cody
C+: Dhalsim, E. Honda, Vega, Abel, Chun-Li, Yang, Gouken
C=: Zangief, Guy, Blanka, Dudley, Dee Jay, El Fuerte
D+: T. Hawk, Dan, Hakan
Alioune’s Tier list, circa October 2013:
Within tiers, order slightly matters. Characters listed first tend to be better.
S+: Cammy, Akuma, Adon, Ibuki, Seth
S: Fei Long, Sakura, Gen, Makoto, C. Viper, Ryu, Sagat, Rose, Balrog, Yun, Cody
A: Vega, M. Bison, Rufus, Ken, Yang, Oni, Evil Ryu, Juri, Guile, Abel, E. Honda, Blanka, Guy, Gouken, Chun
B: Dhalsim, Zangief, Deejay, T. Hawk, Hakan, Dan, Dudley, El Fuerte
Justin Wong’s Tier list from Eventhubs, May 2013:
(alphabetical within tier)
S: Cammy, Fei Long, Sakura, Seth
S-: Adon, C. Viper, Ibuki, Yun
A+: Abel, Gen, Makoto, Rufus, Ryu
A: Gouken, Guy, Juri, M. Bison, Oni
A-: Balrog, Cody, Dhalsim, Guile, Sagat, Zangief
B+: Blanka, Ken, E. Honda, El Fuerte, Rose, Yang
B: Dee Jay, Dudley, Evil Ryu, Hakan
B-: Chun-Li, T. Hawk, Vega,
Kazunoko’s Tier list from Arcadia Magazine, Feb 2012:
S: Cammy, Fei Long, Seth, Adon
A: Ryu, Claw, Sagat, C. Viper, Rufus, Ibuki, Makoto, Juri
B: Ken, E. Honda, Zangief, Guile, Dhalsim, Boxer, Dictator, Abel, Akuma, Sakura, Rose, Gen, Dee Jay, Dudley, Cody, Guy, Yun, Yang, Evil Ryu, Oni
C: Chun-Li, Blanka, El Fuerte, Gouken
D: Hakan, Dan
No opinion: T. Hawk
Various top player opinions on 2012 best characters:
Infiltration, circa Nov 2012:
source: Low Land Lions Interview with Infiltration
Chocoblanka, circa Oct 2012:
source: Low Land Lions Interview with Chocoblanka
Mago, circa Feb 2012:
source: 17UTT forums
Various Japanese Players:
source: Zhi’s twitter and Eventhubs
Daigo, circa November 2011:
Kyoku’s Tier list from June 2012 Issue of Arcadia Magazine:
A: Seth, Cammy, Fei Long, Adon
B: Ryu, Ken, E. Honda, Boxer, Claw, Sagat, Dictator, C.Viper, Rufus, Akuma, Sakura, Ibuki, Makoto, Juri
C: Blanka, Zangief, Guile, Dhalsim, Abel, Rose, Gen, Cody, Guy, Dudley, Yun, Yang, Evil Ryu, Oni
D: Chun Li, El Fuerte, Gouken, Dan, T. Hawk, Dee Jay, Hakan
source: TWfighter forums
Alioune’s Tier list from May 2012:
Source: Alioune’s twitter
Uryo’s Tier list from November 2011:
Top: Akuma, Seth, Abel, Makoto, Boxer, Claw, Sagat, Dictator, Guile, Rufus, Sakura, Cammy, Adon, C. Viper, Fei Long, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, Juri, Ken
Mid: E. Honda, Blanka, Gen, Evil Ryu, Oni, Ryu, Yun, Yang, Ibuki
Bottom: Zangief, El Fuerte, Gouken, Rose, Dan, T. Hawk, Dee Jay, Guy, Dudley, Hakan
source: Uryo’s blog
Itabashi Zangief’s opinion on the ten worst characters in AE 2012, from February 2013:<br>[details=Spoiler]<br><strong>IZ:</strong> Hmm, this is tricky but I think in no particular order<br> <br> -Dan <br> -Hakan<br> -Fuerte<br> -Gouken<br> -Oni<br> -Gen<br> -Deejay<br> -Guy<br> -Yang <br> -Dudley<br><br>Source: Low Land Lions interview with <a href=“http://www.lowlandlions.com/2011/content/News/WWMCZRyan_Hart_praat_met_Itabashi_Zangief-4313.html”>Itabashi Zangief</a><br>[/details]<br>
An analysis of character usage from Vanilla-AE 2012 based on tournament statistics:
I’m no expert and I certainly cant argue with these guys but I feel Dee Jay doesnt get enough love. There was a thread recently about top-tier potential and I feel that Oni certainly has it, but almost at the bottom of the tier. Why are Abel and Makoto so high on the SRK tier? I don’t see enough of them in the top echelon of recent tournaments.
Xian’s Get won the Canada Cup and is a veritable BEAST, but he’s far down on the list. I feel he also deserves more love. Gouken almost at the bottom of the list, I dont get it.
Waiting for some 2013 perks to make Hakan better… he is tons of fun to play. An anti-air normal would boost his defense and shoot him up the ranks, IMHO
DeeJay is seen as low tier mostly because of how bad his wakeup game is, there are other reasons, but that seems to be a major problem in most matchups for him.
They should rename Oni to Onlini, because you arent gonna win anything with him without latency. Hes a gimmick character whose gimmicks are pretty easy to see coming.
Abel - the most notorious Abel player plays KOF 13 now, and AFAIK he doesnt really play SF4 anymore.
more people should play makoto
Gen is majorly slept on in my opinion. But Xian is a character specialist, and Gen is already rare to begin with. Its not surprising that he can win tournaments with him
Aliounes List is from May 201**2 (and at least Kyoku’s probably is from 2012 as well… doesn’t make too much sense for a v2012 List to be released in June11)**
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/ this should prolly also be part
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/nov/28/infiltrations-top-10-characters-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-v2012/ also this
Finally got around to getting this image done, sorry for the delay but real life threw me for a loop.
Lets begin with the disclaimers:
- These results are primarily US centric. I would love to include other regions, especially Asian Pacific region, so if you could point me in the direction of such results/events it would be much appreciated.
- These results I used are what were reported by either the big fgc news sites, from my own viewership and recording, or a thread if I could find one.
- Character representation is based on who the player used throughout the tournament and not necessarily what he used in a specific phase of the bracket.
- The tier lists are based off the November tier list: SSF4 Tier List Thread REBOOT Super + AE (Updated: 02-01-09)
- The Majors covered in this post are:
Apex 2012 (6), Winter Brawl 6 (16), Final Round XV(16),NCR 10(16), Power Up 2012(8), Seasons Beatings Summer Slam(8), Shadowloo Showdown (16), UFGT8(16), Northwest Majors(16), ECT4(8), CEO2012 (16), Evo 2012 (16), Texas 25th(12), NYC 25th(16),Texas Showdown(12), Taiwan 25th(8), Seasons Beatings Ascension(16), LA 25th(16), Brazil 25th(8), Japan 25th(8), Canada Cup(16), France 25th(8), Youmacon(16), European Masters (8), Hadocon IV(16), Dreamhack Winter (8), NEC XIII(16), UK 25th(8), Grand Finals 25th(16)
29 events, 366 placings (Don’t forget, people can use more than one character so numbers may be larger)
[FONT=Open Sans][SIZE=14px]6.The title of being a major is rather loose, I hope to have a more concrete way of defining it in the coming months as to evaluate the level of competition at an event.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Overall charts: With such a US centric list, it is of no surprise to anyone that the EG members inflate B tier representation (Rufus and Balrog) which are very visible in the transition from overall % (47 times EG members appear out of 418 participants, 11%) to the unique % (4 occurrences out of 225 participants, 1.8%). This is also reflect in the drop in the drop in Rufus and Balrog on the unique count list, dropping 16 and 8 places respectively. The overall charts really show that, while obviously more difficult, every character but Dan was capable of making it into top 8 or 16(not all tournaments posted 16, so I took however many were posted for the event).
Top 3 charts: Again the same Rufus Balrog trend appears again but to less severity. The glaring change that jumps out is the complete departure of Dhalsims from 13 players. This speaks volume to the amount of difficulty he has to the most frequently occurring characters in top 3: losing 6-4 or worse to 7 of the top 10, breaking even 5-5 with 2 characters, and winning 1 match up. Also worth noting the charts are starting to shape more towards how a tier list should suggest, slanting from A tiers towards B tier, but due to the bloat of characters in B tier it remains higher.
Top 1 Charts: Rufus remains on top and for the first time in the unique charts he takes a top 2 unique representation; This really shows how good EG Justin Wong and EG Ricky Ortiz have performed this year when compared to the 1st place overall count. On the same note, the same can be said for Infiltration on Akuma, Taking 5 of Akumas 1st place performances(the other being Eita at Shadowloo Showdown) and setting himself apart from the 5 unique representation from the Top 3 list as the premier Akuma player. On the flip side, for the first time Balrog does not return to the chart as his sole representative EG PR Balrog was unable to take home a 1st place win(which is a shame, I love PR Rogs play) and is the only top 10 character from the top 3 chart unable to return. The unique charts, really from across all 3 fields, reflect the power of Cammy in her current state. More people were able to use Cammy then any other character to place in top 16, top 3, and 1st. This may be in part due to her very few bad match ups Ibuki, Balrog, Dee Jay, and Oni), of which are always uniquely under represented.
Combination charts: If I could go back, I would remove the Character Count chart and just make the Occurrence by Tier % bigger as it really has more impact. When you combine the A+, A, and A- tiers and compare it to the massive B tier, they have equal representation in first place finishes. This says two things to me rather loudly: the current version of SF has a wide character variety and that the tier list needs re-structuring in the upper ends of the B tier. According to the tier list, the graph(Occurrence by Tier %) should decrease from A(s) to B tier to illustrate the unique advantage these 5 characters have over the rest of the cast, but it is not possible due to the amount of characters that reside within B. There needs to be a separation of the upper B tiers(B+), but to do this there may need to be a reevaluation of the match ups or adding character weight to the formula(i.e a dee jay beating cammy 6-4 should have more weight than dee jay beating dudley 6-4). That being said, I still think the tier list is a strong representation of the current state of AE2012 so I must again thank Emanuelb and anyone else that put time into the tier list.
It was fun taking the time to organize all the information and really look it over and see what I could take from it. I look forward to seeing if there is anything you guys take away from the data sets that I missed, so please post about anything you find interesting. If anyone needs any information that Isn’t posted in the image I’d be more than happy to post the portions needed. I plan on working on a UMVC3 version and maybe a SFXT(hopefully before the new version comes out) as well, but if you’d like to see something similar from another game let me know.
The problem Oni has is he hasn’t distinguished himself in any particular area of the game that other characters don’t already do as well or better. His mix ups are just ok, his zoning is just ok, everything is just ok. Thus far no one has really found anything with him that separates him from the rest.
Abel is high on the tier list because he has good match ups against the low tier. Again its a problem with the way the rankings are derived from the match up numbers.
Imo abel belongs in the higher end, he just falls short to the current meta of knockdown = dead.
Juicebox should put down KOF for a minute and come show us why Abel deserves his spot. (I wish)
I wish foreign players and the American FGC (or at least the ones in the FGC who consistently stand out) had some way of discussing this list together, I think we’d see some major changes in this list - especially with Infiltration saying Rufus is still top tier. (i think Ricky and Wong might have had a play on that lol)
Also, totally off topic but i think i should change my sig back since this tier list agrees with me that Yang isn’t ass … that is all.
Thanks, fixed and added to OP. I also added a few more top player opinions I scrounged around for.
There are probably a few random top player opinions buried deep in the old tier list thread, but it will take me awhile to find them.
Makoto’s tier placement is somewhat irrelevant in the long run. Most of the time a match involving Makoto comes down to "How well she can read you. There isn’t a character in the game (aside from the grapplers) that wanna deal with her offense up close.
I totally follow your logic, but unfortunately, this can be said about every character. Which is why the old school way of doing tier lists relies on imagining both players in the match being, in theory, carbon copy equal robots. “How well she can read you” is not a tool or attribute that she exclusively brings to the table. It’s a player trait. Yah’ know?
Yeah, this is why Vryu also told me - that Makoto is very difficult to rank, so he declined to help us :(.
Anyway - Marley statistics are awesome, great job, man. I’ll have to take a closer look to the charts.
Good job M16, since now we have a new thread - I have a couple of things that might be added.
First: - I wrote some kind of faq for our tier list - not much, but explains a couple of things - I think it is important to highlight how the tier list was made - it’s an important difference between the way we did it and eventhubs chart (the only 2 charts for v.2012).
- What’s the purpose of a tier list ?
Simply put it - to answer the primordial question - who’s the best character in the game. A tier list is trying to quantify and measure the characters in a (fighting) game and rank them acording to their strength. Anybody who spent some time with fighting games most certainly talked about tiers at some point in time. Even those who disregard tier lists / “does not believe in tiers” talk about character’s strength and match ups.
Now, since there’s no scientific method of doing this, tier list are always based on oppinions, so take them with a grain o salt.
- How this tier list was made ?
Well, there are several ways of determining character’s strength. A simple method is to just list a character’s atributes.X has a dp, good wake up options, good speed, etc… pros and cons. Then we evaluate them and compare it with other characters.
Actually someone tried to make a tier list based on this - he wanted to quantify every tool a character has, and give them a number (from 1 to 10). Unfortunatelly I haven’t heard anything of that project.
The problem with this type of tier list is that it’s very difficult to list every posssible tool a character has, and even more difficult to rank them.
Even more problematic is the fact that this tools are seen in a vacuum - we don’t take into consideration how they would interact with each others in an actual match.
So, usually tier lists are based around match ups (and our tier list follow this patern). We take every character, match him against the others, and try to decide how many matches he would win in a 10 games set, considering the characters are played at the highest level by 2 equaly skilled players and then asign a number (a 6-4 match means a character wins 6 games out of 10).
But how do we do that ? well, this is how LoyalSol (one of our contributors) explained: “Winning match up is based off how many options you shut down versus how many options your opponent can shut down. The more options you have the better the match up is for you and the fewer options the worse the match up is. Horrible match ups are the ones where even your best options gets beat.”
- Why the 0.5 numbers ?
When we started, we based our chart around a japanese one who used 0.5 numbers, so we used them too. Now, this is quite controversial - we had several debate if we should use only round numbers or also 0.5, some were pro, others against. In the end we decided to stick with 0.5.
- So, how did you get the numbers ? by a poll ?
No. We took every character and discussed it’s match ups with arguments, and tried to reach an agreement. Then I tried to get as many oppinions as I could from top players. This whole process took several months - you can check the whole discussion in this thread (I think it’s more than 100 pgs).
- What about when there wasn’t a consensus ?
That actually happened a lot of times (no surprise). When there wasn’t an agreement, I used the following guidelines to decide on the numbers:
- Arguments - the most important. I was interested why a character loses/ wins a match up. The strenght of the arguments were the deciding factor.
- Majority - we still tried to reach a consensus, so I usually went with the majority (unless the minority made a better argument).
- Oppinions were not equal. Oppinions from top players usually weighted more, same for the ones coming from more knowledgeable people.
- So, how many people took part in this ?
Over 150 people shared their oppinions.
- What’s the “main contributors”'s section about ?
I wanted to add on the list those who made a significant contribution to the chart (since I couldn’t include everyone). I had 2 reasons for this: First, as a small reward for those who spent their time on this. Second, so everybody be able to know who contributed to this list.
An observation: the fact that someone is listed as the main contributor for a character does not mean that those character’s numbers represent (entirely) that person’s views. It wouldn’t even be posible, since match ups interact with each other, and with 150+ contributors…
It only implies that person offered the most input for the respective character.
- So, is this tier list trustworthy ? / I disagree with character’s placement…
I said in the beggining that tier lists are made based of oppinions. If you disagree with this one, you simply have a different oppinion than us.
That being said, I think this tier list is trustworthy. First of all, the matches were discussed in detail for months. Second, a LOT of top players offered their input for this list - just check the main contributors column. Besides the names you should easily recognize (among are some players that are the best for their character) there are many lesser known strong players: just to give some examples - Slinkun qualified out of pools at Evo (from Chrisg pool), and made it top 8 at Youmacon. Blueblazer made it top 16 at Toryuken and T13 (with Hawk), Vivaldi - top 8 at Civil War and top 32 Final Round, Heavy Weapons - best australian sagat (top 32 SS, top 8 Ozhadou), West - top 16 at CEO, Veggey - best european Zangief (top 8 dreamhack and NRW), Meteo - top 8 at Apex, Dr Uppercut, Scunsion, Lumina1re, and many others qualified out of pools at Evo, etc.
Many other players contributed heavily for their character in our forum - check them out.
- Why isn’t Justin Wong/ Dieminion/etc on this list ?
Simple answer - I couldn’t contact them. I live in Eastern Europe, so I don’t have many ways to contact them. I tried to contact every to player I could find (and I know of) - but unless they logged on shoryuken forum in the last couple of months, I couldn’t talk with them.
Even then, not everybody was interested in taking part in this project.
- I still disagree with this chart
Well, it’s your oppinion. But let me explain a couple of things. First, character’s placement is a result of their matches. What this means is nobody aranged them in this way. Second, for one person to be able to decide where a character should be placed (“my character is no way top 10”…) that person should know very well all 39 characters - otherwise, how can you decide what characters should be in top 10 (and you should know this, otherwise how do yo know your character is not in top 10 ? ). Since I don’t think there’s one person who knows every character, it’s very difficult for a single person to decide where a character should be.
More, you have to think that when you disagree with this list, you also disagree with all the people that put their input into it (over 150 people) - including many top players.
That being said - a tier list is never truly finnished. New tech is constantly found, unknown characters gets more exposure, all this change the matches and the tier lists.
Also, we are an open minded community :razzy:. If you disagree with the matches, you can come into our thread and share your oppinion. If you make a strong argument, we might revise the tier list in the future. Constructive criticism is always welcome."[/details]
If you think it’s worth something, you can add it with our tier list. Feel free to edit it if you like.
Maybe the first part might be added in the first post ? since it’s about tier lists in general - I especially liked Loyalsol’s explanation about how matches are decided - I think it would help many people to understand better how tier lists work.
Second: I know this thread is specifically about v.2012 - and M16 did a good job of gathering all the tier lists available - but I think maybe we should add the more important tier lists for older versions of the game, too.
In the old thread for example - I see there are a couple of important tier lists for AE and Super that are missing - it would be a shame to be lost.
So what I think is - maybe make a separate section(s) for AE, Super and Vanilla, and only add the most important tier lists (especially those who are not listed in the older thread).
This is what I’m talking about:
- AE: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/uploads/13567697661.png - the only match up chart for ae.
- Super: http://www.freeuploadsite.com/uploads/13567698571.png - the latest chart for Super
- Super & Vanilla: http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2012/mar/29/tier-rankings-super-street-fighter-4-and-older-versions/ - a collections of tier lists for super and vanilla.
Well yeah. I’ve tried to provide as much info on her matchups as I could but I realized most of the time my info boiled down to “Can you keep her out well or keep her locked down? Good matchup for you. If not, God have mercy on your soul.” Moreso than just about any character her strength relies on her ability to condition the opponent and make them pay DEARLY for the slightest misstep. Unlike some of the other derps though she works hard to put herself in that situation and takes risks to stay there. Which I think is fair, moreso than the others who either OS every option you have (Akuma) or rely on absolutely retarded hitboxes/copious amounts of hit/blockstun(Cammy) to maintain perpetual pressure.
And before you Aluma/Cammy mains get salty this is slight hyperbole. Refer to the avatar if you take issue with it.
lol tier lists,
every character has potential to do great, just some characters requre less skill or less reads to do so.