this game is like
cammy, fei, adon, viper, seth for best characters
then you can argue that dudley, chun, fuerte, hawk need a little help, but honestly they arent that bad at all
this game is like
cammy, fei, adon, viper, seth for best characters
then you can argue that dudley, chun, fuerte, hawk need a little help, but honestly they arent that bad at all
The game is pretty decently balanced. I honestly think the mechanics of the game make the gap more than the characters. It’s like the new Twisted Metal game with undodgeable weapons, which is stupid and makes smaller vehicles low tier. The vehicles are fine, it’s just more of the mechanics.
Some characters will be better than others. The characters who are the best have more reliable/safer offense, good damage, and mixups. Generally.
Okay, first. What am I reading. Let’s list zoningy things:
Standard fireball: Even.
Shoryukens: Roughly even. Main thing is trajectories which are equivalent. If they don’t matter just MP SRK all day.
Stand Roundhouse, various AA pokes: Even.
Shakunetsu: Evil Ryu only.
This is what I am getting at here. The respect Shaku forces gives Evil Ryu in essence a better zoning game than normal Ryu. It’s the same reason Akuma has better zoning than normal Ryu - tools that force respect. Akuma doesn’t have the srks and active frames on buttons but has air fb which obviously compensates. Air hado does shit damage, no one cares. In this case, too, a separate Shakunetsu is simply an option Ryu doesn’t have. Wins fireball wars handily, can’t be focused => jump => srk/roundhouse dat shit. It’s not rocket science. He can play the classic Ryu game better than Ryu can in this game, precisely because he has tools instead of damage.
I wasn’t talking about the kd which is obviously good. Just as a fast two-hit longish ranged poke that Ryu players use it as at close-mid range. Evil Ryu has that, Akuma doesn’t. Again, extra tools.
Not constantly, no. But, you know, using them. When all I hear is “never use this horrid shit omigod this is bad why does it even exist”.
Yeah, and it doesn’t exist in a vacuum so that point is moot. It has threat precisely because of the safe followups (hadouken) and insane damage potential if you want to try going for it. The main point with the high damage is that you just have to be way more careful with patching a character capable of massive explosive damage than someone who just lands solid hits like Ryu. The latter is far less risky and more predictable. Little else. Surely not being able to land damage is a problem. It’s just that fixing it without exercising extreme caution is very dangerous. (Though I disagree he needs to be able to open people up because he has a good zoning game. Sit back, frustrate opponent, punish if you see a mistake. Sounds like a good gameplan to me.)
Also calling this out, because wtf. Ryu’s sweep starts in five frames and has the same range as Evil Ryu’s low forward. You see the cr.mk start, that’s one frame gone already. One frame window to hit that sweep if you want to punish the slow startup. Otherwise it’s the same as any other shoto low forward on Earth except it has more range. How that’s somehow stupidly punishable I don’t know. Yeah, on a read it’s easy to sweep you out of it. On a read many, many things in this game are very easy.
How exactly do we say that? They both have strong zoning with slight advantage to Ryu. They both have good footsies with advantage to Ryu. However Evil Ryu have much better oki and superior damage and stun. Ryu has linear pressure and limited mixups. Evil Ryu has less health and stun as well.
Ryu seems better now because let’s be honest, he is played by one of the worlds best players and he’s been used by top players since this series started. Evil Ryu actually has more potential than Ryu, but hasn’t been exposed enough yet.
Ease of use has no impact on tier placement.
The problem here is what you are saying isn’t even true. Evil Ryu is more than just “some of their good” he actually surpasses both in the damage and stun departments. He has less tools than Akuma but more than Ryu.
Except he doesn’t have slow normals as I already pointed out. All his close normals are standard shoto stuff. He has some slow long range normals, but they have more range.
He isn’t lacking tools. He has more tools that Ryu and less than Akuma. If having less than Akuma is “lacking” then everybody is lacking in this game.
Evil Ryu has better normals than Viper with similar damage.
Evil Ryu racks up the damage just fine. Watch good players use him.
Seriously like 80% of the cast cannot do the type of damage Evil Ryu does unless they use meter. But if Evil Ryu uses meter he gets obscene damage. Short of Viper nobody has his damage output. So no, your opponent isn’t hitting you back just as hard. In fact most matchups the opponent will not be able to keep up in damage.
He has an easier time than Ryu, which is the point. Plus he has Ryu’s air tatsu buff where the angle gets you in from a long distance.
Yes Viper and Evil Ryu do the most damage, but they are in their own tier in that regard. The thing is most characters, Viper included, need meter to replicate the damage Evil Ryu does.
His cr mk is not intended to be used like Ryu’s. The problem you have is you think you can approach footsies like Ryu or Akuma. You can’t. His footsies are different but still strong. He has st mk to beat Ryu cr mk spam. He has hop kick to go over those fast low pokes that beat his cr mk. Guess what? When you establish that you have counter poke options then you get to use you cr mk.
Alot of characters can’t combo in cr mk. Who cares? That’s not what it’s for.
No he is different than his counterparts, no necessarily worse.
Well sadly that is not possible in SF4. It’s only a matter of time before they get around or punish your zoning. At least Evil Ryu can punish anti zone attempts for huge damage. Akuma can’t.
It’s crap. He isn’t mixing you up much if at all. He gets safe jump OS all day, but if you decide to block he goes back to cr mk xx fireball mode.
All his combos can lead into a force stand. He never has to sacrifice meter for damage. He doesn’t give a shit if you stand or duck, you eat the same combo. He gets most of Ryu’s OS options but has a dive kick which can lead to ambiguity on wake up. He has crossup tatsu and huge active frames on his jump attacks.
Sure he doesn’t have the best oki in the game, but it sure is good. He’s not Viper or Seth, but he is better than alot of the cast.
I don’t know what to tell you. You keep singing the same tune that he has bad midrange normals, but I keep seeing Narou outfootsie characters like Ken and Bison during Topanga.
Naruo is obviously a footsie god to be able to beat Bison.
I never said he was almost broken, I said he would be easy to break. This game has a precarious balance and even very slight changes (Ryu cr mk for example) can drop a character from top tier to mid tier or vice versa.
Anyway I already said I suspect he’s as good as Ryu.
Again ignoring what Evil Ryu has in favor of downplaying the character. He has far superior dashes forward and back, incredible focus vs Akuma’s shit one, better health and stun numbers, better air normals by far, superior air tatsu by far, force stand combos on everybody, better fireballs on the ground and an FADC ultra.
He is more than moderately better damage.
Sure maybe not top 5, but certainly top 10.
No a theory. It has been used in the manner you say it can’t. Sure it’s not a goto move and must be used sparingly, but it is still used.
No you can’t. Nobody knows this character enough to say with any accuracy outside of Japan.
Perhaps after Topanga people will have a different opinion.
Akuma’s gameplan is built on UKD but the game itself is built on mixups. Viper, Cammy and Seth don’t care about UKD.
Welcome to Akuma’s world - sacrificing significant damage and stun for a UKD.
You don’t get to UKD guys free off a 400 damage 600 stun combo. That would be retarded.
It’s safe which is the point. It’s also a move the everybody in SSF4 wishes they had when fighting Bison. It is great in the places it’s supposed to be used. Nobody gets great moves 100% of the time no matter how you use them.
You are at no significant disadvantage post block. You are not overly close and only a few characters could possible punish it. The scenario is not dissimilar to Akuma’s st HK post block.
The only way this character could be tweaked is with worthless changes to avoid breaking him or to avoid invalidating Ryu. Stuff like a 6 frame sweep or 5 frame cr mk? Why the fuck would anybody play Ryu?
He is obviously on the cusp of being unbalanced or invalidating Ryu altogether. The beta changes to him - 6 frame sweep, - 1 on blocked lk wheel kick, were reversed for a reason.
Why do you keep saying less tools? He has more tools than every other shoto except Akuma.
We don’t know if they over estimated his damage potential because we haven’t exposed the character yet.
Those characters also don’t get to zone 90% as well as normal Ryu does.
He has more tools than Ken and Ryu. Do you think they can’t open anybody up?
Except most of those characters don’t zone as well or can’t get damage from zoning.
Evil Ryu gets damage from zoning or mixup. Nobody else gets to zone you for damage and mix you up for damage.
Except he isn’t lacking as I have shown.
Normals are not slow and doesn’t lack tools. Not sure how you ever convinced yourself of that fallacy.
You don’t have to get in. You can zone them and get damage from your zoning. That’s kind of the entire point.
It’s possible. We need to see how he evolves.
We could go back to complaining about Cammy.
You guys are breaking some records here for quote trees. Somebody owes me a new page down key.
That’s better, a constructive discussion without needless insults and strawmans. People can disagree with me, that’s fine. That’s what the thread is for.
Ok, in terms of controlling space. Ryu does it better overall. I will say that Evil Ryu can win fireball wars easier due to shaku (which I did say). Ryu has the buttons to control space better though.
I said it was a decent move. Not a GREAT move. I see great normals for shotos as standard mk, or Akuma’s fst rh. His hop kick is riskier than the other moves unless you have meter to create space on block.
But we were talking about the move on its own. Yes it has the potential, but it doesn’t take away from my point that the move is slow (slower than sweeps and AS slow as his own sweep). It does have uses. It’s actually one of his better moves, just not standalone.
Yes, high damage needs careful patching, but so do other things. I think people see “big damage” and think that any tweak would make it broken. 1 frame off of his lower moves for instance wouldn’t be nearly as bad or would it create the pressure that characters like Viper, Seth, and Akuma has. These characters all do good damage and have the tools to do it EASIER with less risk. Evil Ryu does the big damage, but lacks the tools, but he has low health too. So my point wasn’t that he is terrible. His counterparts are just better overall choices. For a competitive point of view, why play a low health character who is very footsie dependent and has slow normals to land damage when you can get someone who does comparable damage much easier, not to mention the numerous 1f links in his "big damage combos "(some require 2 or 3), you’d just be better off using someone else who does healthy damage much safer.
The point is basically his damage is better but it doesn’t make up for his lack of tools.
A thread basically talking about what we’re talking about here.
My point was that it is slow and can’t be comboed into. More or less. Didn’t say it was stupidly punishable, but it isn’t a “godly” normal either.
So I’m watching Topanag Naruo vs Dogura again. Look for it to see examples of wheel kick used as pressure.
Anyway, Bison the king of mindless footsies has to back off of Evil Ryu during footsies because Dogura is obviously afraid of eating that “slow ass useless cr mk” because that thing leads to 500 damage combos. How stupid would it be if that thing was 5 frames? Anyway…so we see him back off a few times and low and behold during the climax of the match, as if to prove what Dogura was afraid of, Naruo lands a cr mk into some obscene fadc ultra damage combo while on the verge of losing and wins the round shortly after with superior footsies.
Akuma’s DP has like the smallest auto correct window, so it just misses. However cr fp stuff like every one of Gen’s jumps.
Anyway, yeah Daigo obviously didn’t know the matchup, but Gen is also very deceptive and you can second guess yourself when he jumps even when you know the matchup. For somebody without any experience in that match it no wonder Daigo was second guessing what to do.
Man e. ryu is the first character that breaks that rule that the character’s strength is inversely proportional to how players rank their character. WTF? Why the hell do you play the character if you think he’s low tier or holding you back in your game?
He CAN get untechable knockdowns off every touch. His meter building is outright ridiculous, among the best in the game. Theoretically has the best karathrow in the game, or second best. After you get a knockdown, it doesn’t matter what button you press, you probably get some setup because his j.hk has a retarded hitbox.
Yeah we have to wait until naruo takes topanga. And the funny thing is i think kok is a better e. ryu, simply because he seems like an insanely patient player.
And by the way, daigo would’ve probably won that tournament if he went with Ryu from the beginning. Using Guile was obviously a terrible idea.
So, how does Ryu do it better overall? As far as I know, of the buttons Ryu has only cr.mk and sweep are substantially different from what Evil Ryu has, and those are more footsie tools than zoning ones.
How does Ryu do zoning better than Evil Ryu, pray tell? They have basically all the same tools, except Evil has at-will multihit fireballs and a better walk speed. Ryu is undoubtedly better at a certain style of footsies which Evil can’t play but how that pertains to zoning I don’t know. So, again, what makes Ryu actually a better zoner than Evil Ryu? Because given their toolsets I’m just not seeing it. At all.
Saying that something is punishable by sweep implies said punish is somehow realistic. It’s a one frame window at best if done on reaction with one of the fastest-starting sweeps in the game. That’s not very doable. Not being able to combo into it is a better example of a certain kind of slowness. Still, to be expected when the button’s main job is controlling the long end of midrange. combo-into-abilit is usually not the defining feature of such buttons.
I think he was using the whole tournament as a counter-pick experience. “How well can I do if I try to counterpick by the on-paper bad matchups?” He will use the answers he got and prepare better for Evo, which is the only tournament he cares about I think.
Like, congrats to Xian for a very impressive feat, but I would not want him to face Daigo at Evo this year.
cr.mk karathrow is insane. Extremely hard to do though, not sure if viable…it’s some tekken just frame stuff.
At a certain range, Dudley’s cr.mk will beat most of Rose’s midrange options.
In theory he has more potential, but potential arguments don’t go far on their own. Like I said, perhaps one day something new will be discovered by him, but he is cut from the same mold of Ryu and Akuma. He has the low health and the slow normals and COMPARED to his low health lacking tools. Maybe that is a better way to say it.
Easier to use characters are more likely to be picked up and explored which would mean more results. Also ease of effectiveness does play a role. If it didn’t the highest damage character would be top tier always. Some characters get big damage in easier than others. If we were assuming the player is perfect in all ways there would likely be next to no tier disparity. Some characters have a higher line to cross before their potential is explored or maximized.
So we agree. He hits harder, but has low health. He has worse tools than Akuma and worse normals than both.
My point is that his damage, while top notch isn’t enough to overwrite his slow normals, lacking tools, and health. Which is why I say his counterparts are better options in competitive play.
His normals are slower overall, especially for a low health character who doesn’t have the ease of getting in.
Compared to his health he does. Low health characters generally have superior tools to compensate for their health, Evil Ryu’s tools nor damage does. Which is why the top tier characters are top tier. That’s my pint.
Yea, I guess you could say they are better overall, but Viper doesn’t need normals much anyways. Just a few links into ultra and f mp and cr mp and mk. She doesn’t spend much time playing footsies.
I think everyone agrees that hitting hard isn’t Evil Ryu’s problem.
Yes Evil Ryu does the most damage in the game. In combos due to his low health the percentage isn’t massively different. Many characters can hit E. Ryu for 30-40% off of setups and can get in much easier. Yes he can hit them for that much too, but not with the same ease.
Yes on paper he does more damage, but it obviously isn’t as simple in that. A character like Viper can get in quite frequently and to massive damage from many angles and setups and has many ways to keep the opponent guessing.
Ryu has faster normals so it isn’t entirely true. Plus Ryu has the health and can zone and not rely on “getting in” as much. Lower health characters generally aren’t played to be less aggressive and zone as much. Yes Evil Ryu CAN zone, but setting back chucking fireballs is a waste of his time. Most people who play Evil Ryu play him like Ryu. If you aren’t doing the big damage (which is his main trait) just pick Ryu, he has more health anyways.
Evil Ryu does great meterless damage, and builds meter fast. Yes, that is his strength. The point is they can do it easier and more reliably than Evil Ryu can based on his moveset, so it is a tradeoff.
Viper for instance can combo into ultra off of all of her ground normals except roundhouse (even lk and lp crouching or standing). She can FFF for massive stun and of course mix up like a boss. The options she has for comparable damage > Evil Ryu’s damage alone.
I don’t think I can approach his footsies like them. Because he can’t. He is VERY footsie dependent and linear for a low health character with slower normals. His cr mk is good for block strings and surprise combos, but his st mk is a superior poke.
They have their advantages but I’d say that overall a 7f cr mk is inferior. Not bad, but not as good as his other counterparts.
The shotos can. Comboing into it would give him more versatility. I’m comparing him more to his counter parts and strengths and weaknesses.
Worse overall yes.
His teleport isn’t good at all. You can whip it out as a total surprise when someone isn’t expecting it, but it isn’t a good move by anymeans.
Well zoning lasts as long as the character can keep it up. Akuma does it better.
Punish on anti Zoning, Evil Ryu does that pretty good, as does Ryu. But we’re talking about zoning.
Akuma gets great reversal options with top notch zoning and screen control.
It’s basic and effective, it’s nowhere near the best… but neither is Ryu.
All of his combos do not, but his combos starting with hp do. The better oki characters don’t rely on you standing as much. He doesn’t have to sacrifice meter for damage, but he does sacrifice it for attack options. You eat the combo if he can get in. Close fierce and crouching fierce aren’t the fastest moves. You could start it off of jab, crouching short, or crouching mp (which is character specific) but it isn’t a reliable hitconfirm. I’d actually argue that you aren’t better off not relying on meter. You might as well spend it and get in vs fishing.
It’s decent considering damage, but for a LOW health character, it isn’t amongst the best.
Better player, not better normals. Especially not better than bison.
His standing mk is actually a good move. I don’t think he has bad normals, just not great considering his health.
Gotcha. Although E. Ryu had a heap of buffs and he didn’t move up a ton. He can tatsu sweep some characters and THOSE matches aren’t even in his favor.
I think he is ok, not 4th worse, but not close to broken.
I’m not downplaying the character.
Evil Ryu’s advantages over Akuma:
good dashes (worse walkspeed)
builds meter fast
slightly better health and stun
better ultras and super that can be comboed into (although Akuma CAN combo into U2).
As far as ultras, I’d actually say U2 is better than U1 for Evil Ryu if you master it, I’d say it’s the best 500+ damage ultra in the game because it has quite a few setups.
The thing is the things E. Ryu has in advantage, aren’t near what he lacks. Which is why he’s a worse character. Doesn’t mean he’s garbage, just not as good.
It isn’t leagues better. Shotos don’t suck at dealing damage anyways.
Really? This is what I was curious about. It seemed many people were saying Evil Ryu sucked, but it seems people in this thread think he has some solid potential. Could you do an analysis on his matchups vs the cast? I’m curious.
The axe kick ( I got lost in your quotes)? It isn’t a great standalone move. People get caught by it more or less because they aren’t used to defending against it and don’t realise the ease it can be countered with.
You’re better off using st mk.
Same can be said about a lot of characters.
They do benefit from it and have an easier time attaining it. I agree that Akuma is more dependent on it.
He does it without meter and has a much easier time doing it. He has a very powerful vortex off of it. Not quite the same. Evil Ryu relies more on damage more so in that case he’d be better off doing it.
400 damage 600 stun? That’s an exaggeration. Bnb to sweep does 337/475. That’s good because it is Evil Ryu but not retarded. The characters he can do it to still win the majority over him so it isn’t as retarded as you say.
Hop kick can be easily punished by Bison’s standing mk. I said it is a good move. I wouldn’t say excellent, but whatever.
Akuma’s move is better overall for advancing and can lead to much better combos. It’s not as telegraphed either. Viper’s f mp is a good advancing move for instance, or Ibuki’s as they are true overheads.
I never said anything like a 5 frame cr mk. You are either mistaking me for someone else or strawmanning me .
I said he could use a 6 frame cr mk and a 1 frame faster sweep (sweep is almost useless on it’s own since it is just as fast as cr mk and has little combo potential). Obviously he has more range on his normals so to make them faster than the short range ones would be unfair.
Akuma has those things and people still pick Ryu. Ryu has more health and very solid normals. If anything I’d say 1 frame off of cr mk. A more useful axe kick or teleport but that will probably never happen.
I thought they had that axe kick at +1 as a typo. The sweep… well Capcom is known for silly changes. His tatsu sweep opponents still have an advantage.
Health/tool ratio isn’t as good was my point.
In theory but I guess we could see.
They don’t need it either.
They have faster normals and more health so they are more suited to play footsies for a longer period of time. Characters who have less health… blah blah blah. :eek:
Don’t need it.
They can do it for damage just not as much, but they vastly excel in one or the other areas.
My point is he lacks compared to his counterparts he was based on, making them better choices. In theory he might not but… :eek:
They do for his health. once again.
E. Ryu sitting in the back and zoning is pointless unless it is used to open them up. Zoning for its own sake is a waste of time with his low health.
No thanks, this is more interesting. 8)
Well I think it’s pretty obvious the Bison was outplayed, because his kicks are stupid good. Many of these players are also not as used to dealing with Evil Ryu so they are less certain how to defend against him. He might have actually beat a good Akuma since is more used to encountering them. If Evil Ryu was as common as those characters I’d see your point.
I never said his cr mk was useless. Just that his standing mk is better on its own. That’s a strawman.
Well, I for one never said he sucked, I said I don’t agree with the tier charts that said he was 4th worse, but he isn’t the best, around average or slightly below. Btw I play because I enjoy using him, but I do use Viper and enjoy playing her if I need to get my tier whore on.
He can’t get untech off of every touch for free. He does build meter fast, I’d say the best actually.
His cr mk karathrow has good range, but it is unlikely you’ll see it used, most will use his others.
It doesn’t matter what button you press on kd? Is this Viper? This sounds like more theory fighter to me.
Evil Ryu has Akuma’s cr hp, and fst hp. He has a different crouching move entirely. Evil Ryu is better at the fireball wars, no doubt about that, but Ryu is more suited to sit back and zone for a long time. Using Evil Ruy for that purpose exclusively is unproductive.
It is a slow move at 7 frames that can be stuffed by cr mk or cr hk. Me pointing out the sweep was more for effect. Nobody is going to sit and deliberately try to predict and sweep cr mk over and over again. It is still a slow poke especially considering his health.
I think he has missed the point about the Akuma- E.Ryu match up and turned this into a “WHY E.RYU SUCKS!” thread.
Seeing Naruo take away 60% with E.Ryu is pretty sweet
What’s worse is that his point was wrong from the beggining.