ST: counter characters


#21

I’m not sure I buy the “jab torpedo beats Honda” thing. It is hard to counter with a jab headbutt, but it’s very possible, as long as you don’t get faked out and try to counter one that is not going to reach you.


#22

my input is buy my tape of evolution st and see haow all these matchups work.

ie vega vs shotos, vega vs osagat, sim vs vega.

unfotunately there’s no cammy in there. but i’ll get here sometime.

if you’re at ecc8 or mwc coming up ask me about some matchups.
gotta go since it fri b4ecc8= mucho st matchups:eek: :cool:

cya


#23

Hey I always hear that Shotos/O Sagat beat Honda but what do you have to do? Just run away full screen and try to keep him out with fireball/uppercut? Reason asking cause in ST at ECC was doing good, got my Vega countered by Honda so I pick O Sagat but then I realized I have no idea how to play O Sagat let alone counter Honda so like that wasn’t too smart. I was doing ok but was wondering if there was more to it than throw fireball/uppercut


#24

Fei-Long is the shit in ST. Blanka counters Vega.


#25

care to explain?


#26

I got one… Who counters DJ? Sim?


#27

NO ONE counters Dee Jay!

…or at least, I don’t think sim does. Sim doesn’t have a strong poking game vs. dee jay because of dee jay’s cr. fierce and cr. strong. I’m not sure if either of those beats sim’s s. forward though.

Sim isn’t a match I fear…some matches that worry me are ken (both; old fireball traps you, new is just scary all around) and blanka (stops crossups for free!).

jms


#28

marvelscrub:

cammy does really well against Sim. Jump strong beats out almost all his limbs, so she can just counter his poking all day until she sees the right moment to move in.

Shotos do well against DJ. Both of them can fireball trap DJ if the spacing is right and DJ has trouble with shoto fireball pressure.


#29

DJ has a tough time if he’s pinned in the corner vs shoto, similar to the predicament that chun faces when pinned.


#30

DeeJay does has some hard counters, IMO.
It’s improbable that any DeeJay would win vs. an OG Sagat. Variable tigershots will win most of the time.
DeeJay has a hard time vs. wall jumping Vegas.
Guile beats DeeJay due to some better moves and pokes.
DeeJay gets beat by shotos if zoned in the corner. Ryu has a larger success rate due to his fireball being a bit faster than Ken’s.

Dhalsim has a hard time vs. Cammy.
Also vs. Honda, but that is a matchup I don’t quite understand.
In Japan, shotos own Dhalsim hard… David Sirlin talked about it when he was here in TX, talking about all the shotos need a knockdown to gain the advantage. From there, he noticed a Ryu player crossup with jumping RH, then low strong, link into low fierce, two-in-one into fireball, and that’s an instant dizzy combo. Peace out for sim. Here in the states, I also believe that Ryu can fight sim due to Sim’s inability to throw normal fbs at Ryu.

Vs. OG Sagat: Shotos can beat Sagat, but it takes an extreme amount of patience to do so.
OG Sagat’s only chance vs. Vega is Sagat retreating to the corner, effectively reducing Vega’s wall jumping tricks.

Honda: FB characters can beat Honda due to his slow jumping speed and fatness. FB charas can throw FBs all day, and when Honda comes jumping close, there is a range where he can be swept without fear of retaliation. Only thing that Honda can really do is jump straight up and hit Fierce, as his downward trajectory can be controlled somewhat. The key to Honda’s game is his ability (or lack thereof) to get in close and Ochio those beiatches.

Hope this helps from my point of view…


#31

Ryu owns Sim because of a crossup dizzy combo? Don’t most characters have a crossup dizzy combo? I don’t really understand… How does Ken own him? Same thing?

When I get my ass kicked by Sim, I usually spend most of my time just TRYING to get it… nevermind getting in for a crossup. :frowning:

Why is this? Because he can hurricane over them?

Thanks for the input guys… and if anyone could go into DJ vs Guile more that would be great too.


#32

random info not sure if its been said.

but ryu vs dee jay ryu can hurricane kick through fireballs with timing ala championship edition or hyper fighting. I would assume ken can also but i dunno.


#33

Ryu really goes over “thin” fireballs rather then thru them (see: dj, guile, sim). He doesn’t have the invincibility frames he had back in the hf days to actully pass thru the fireballs, same deal for Ken.
In regards to the sim vs shoto match up thing, it sounds like japan players use the hk to knock sim down if he ever fireball’s (this works from 1/2 screen away, sim’s hella lagged in recovery) and they probably stand outside of slide range and trade red fireballs vs limbs to knockdown, just a guess though.
Ken’s hk obviously does not knockdown but he can tag sim for a hit and gain position on him. This gets him into a sweetspot where its a short/throw/dp guessing game. Ken also has a better cross-up then ryu (much more ambiguous) but ryu has many more knockdown options to set his up.

-wes


#34

well vs guile or sim ryus hurricane kick goes through the fireball while the kick is spinning.

however against DJ once your spinning it doesnt go through the fireball(at least not for me). however if you wait till the fireballs about to hit you and hurricane kick you go through it.


#35

To add on to that, Ryu does have more options (random dp, red fb, hk). The shoto key is to knock Dhalsim down, and go for the crossup combos.


#36

In all sf2 games, ryu definitely has the better fireball and hurricane (both of which are ideal for knocking sim down), but Ken has the better random dp game. It’s much easier to do walking dp’s with Ken, and he has much better recovery (some characters can’t even punish him). A decent strategy with Ken is rush sim and throw out a random jab dp when you expect a limb. We all saw how well this can work in the japanese ST matches over at gamecombos, it’s like playing computer-controlled Ken.

-wes


#37

I played with some buddies and I don’t really see the Guile counters DJ thing… Seems like DJ can keep up to me. He can hit that darn low forward, slide under booms upclose, match his booms, etc. What am I missing?

Here’s one: Who DOESN’T counter T.Hawk?? :slight_smile:


#38

NO ONE counters Dee Jay!

the doctor sim rocks dj like he rocks guile. though in most cases dj can jump in easier than guile, unless your u’re mike watson’s guile.

i’m unsure who takes out dj easier : sim or shotos?


#39

I’m not gonna post how to own me for free but yo, seriously, O.Sagat ownz Vega more than O.Ken. It just so happens that the ppl who are playing Sagat these days either never knew how to own Vega or somehow forgot. It happens. I’ve gotten owned by a character I KNEW the easy strat for simply because I forgot due to not playing the game throughout the year. Then I remember during the next year and don’t lose that match. Of course, then I forget some other match and lose that, lol. So, Sim is getting owned for free this year but some random character is gonna fuck me up:(

Anyway, point is, Sagat has the clear advantage, although Vega can compete, simply because patience while jumping can keep Sagat honest with the tigers. Still, there’s a strat that makes it near impossible for Vega to win. Sitting in the corner is exactly what you don’t want to do. Vega can get over a TU much easier when Sagat is in the corner. That’s a grab for Vega. That’s exactly where I want Sagat anyway. I play to push him back but…there’s no need to shoot myself in the foot so close to national tourneys I plan to attend.

Played as is, it’s a close match. I’m just being honest though. I really fear an OG Sagat that really knows the match-up. OK, I don’t fear him. But I dread the uphill battle that it really is. Fortunately I’ve avoided this situation recently:)

Apoc.


#40

NO ONE counters Dee Jay!

Hmmm, you don’t fear Sim…Interesting.