Standing short tick into command grab with zangief


#1

So I’m a terrible ST/HDR player but I dig the game anyway. It’s pretty fun even as I’m getting beat down over and over, lol. Anyway I ran into a Zangief player from Japan last night who beat me up 10 straight games, and wanted to ask about something he employed often: standing short tick into command grab with Gief on my wakeup.

So two questions:

Is this HDR specific or is it the same in ST? I ask that because I remember people discussing how his command grab motion was simplified for HDR. So I’d imagine if that’s the case it would be easier to buffer the motion behind the standing short. Is that the case or is this just standard Zangief stuff in both versions?

Either way, how do I deal with it? Jumping out right on my wakeup of course didn’t work, trying to jump out as soon as I saw the standing short didn’t work (it seemed like as soon as I got out of block stun I was getting grabbed) and I didn’t find any normals that came out fast enough to beat it.

I’ve definitely considered “you just have to guess your way out and it is the natural result of letting Gief get in in the first place” but I don’t want to get ahead of myself and make assumptions that aren’t necessarily true.

Any help you can send my way will be appreciated!


#2
  1. This is a standard, normal part of Zangief’s strategy, both in HDR and ST. Every good Gief player will be trying some variation of the tick throw when they knock you down. So the best way to avoid it is not to get knocked down (jumping out doesn’t work in ST and HDR like it does in SF4, you will still be thrown).

  2. If you do get knocked down, I need to know what character you use in order to give you specific options. But let’s assume you’re using Ryu. If you get knocked down and Gief is planning to do stand Short, SPD, the only way to get out of the throw is to do an invincible reversal attack such as the Shoryuken. These are Ryu’s specific options:
    -before Gief does the stand Short, reversal Shoryuken or reversal Tatsu as soon as you wakeup
    -block the stand Short, then reversal Shoryuken or reversal Tatsu

Unless the Gief player messes up his execution, you’re guaranteed to get thrown if you miss your reversals. Jumping out doesn’t work because you can be thrown during pre-jump frames. So practice your reversal execution! Good luck, and here’s a video to help you out:

[media=youtube]7-H9_QNUP0A[/media]


#3

Hey thanks! I don’t play much SF4 lol, but yeah I play mostly 3s and there you can jump out of command grabs too so I was surprised it wasn’t working here.

I was playing Chun and Guile. So it’s the same deal with them I assume? Upkicks for Chun, flash kick for Guile?


#4

I’m thinking Upkicks may not be viable but I’m probably just not doing it right, I guess. I’m curious too.


#5

Actually Chun can use either Upkicks or Spinning Bird Kick, both have small amount of invinciblity on start up, you just have to time right as a reversal.


#6

If you need help with reversal execution, this video shows you how to piano. “Piano” is a technique that will greatly help your reversal execution.

Super Street Fighter II Turbo Advanced Tutorial

Also, this is a shenanigans video, where you can see some crazy, outrageous shit. (Both videos apply to ST and HDR)

NKI Volume X


#7

Thanks. Since this is already a Zang thread, how about another question? You know Zang’s jumping body slam players spam? Upkicks is cleanly beaten, and even though I heard that standing close medium kick works, I’ve had no success. Also, I’ve been told to walk under but I can only push through, eating multiple on my way out of the corner. So I either do that or mash medium punch for grab. Tips?


#8

quit the game… for good


#9

Close Forward does work, and yes it is hard to time. Repeated splashes are very tough for Chun Li, the best overall option is to keep yourself from getting trapped like that.

Having said that, your other options are:

  1. block and wait for the tick throw and then do reversal Spinning Bird Kick to escape the throw. Say Gief does splash, crouch Jab, SPD, you can beat the throw with SBK, at least you’ll be charged for it. You can also try to jump out and hope he screws up his execution.
  2. you can take the hit and try to reversal throw.
  3. kamikaze option: build meter by mashing Lightning Legs or doing SBK or Upkicks. You take the hit, but if you have lots of health and are close to meter, you can Super your way out. It’s risky but what else can you do right?

Edit: Ignore the previous fool. LOL


#10

It is possible to upkick the splash, timing is just hard


#11

I don’t know why this is so hard for you to make advancements, random. Just go into training mode, have a friend do splashes on you, and practice your stand mk timing until you get it down.

http://i.imgur.com/YvoW6uC.jpg

It’s this kick right here. The one were her red hit box is much higher above her blue hurtbox.

http://i.imgur.com/Cm96PdX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Cm96PdX.jpg

You’re going to kick him in the fucking chest, where your red hit box is tall enough to reach his blue hurt box. Even if you end up kicking his nuts, the diagram looks like you will still be able to hit him first before he hits you. If he jumps so close that your kick hits his knees, you lose, he will stuff your mk.

That kick doesn’t stay out all day, the timing is strict so you need to know when to push the mk button.

PS.
If you want to upkick it, you have to hit it right the first splash, after that you lose charge as he keeps splashing you to death. And you have to use LK version of the upkick because that version has 6 frames of invincibility on start up vs mk with is only 4 frames, and HK is only 2 frames. Always use LK.


#12

@TheBastard: Make me, bitch. @Blitzfu: Thanks, even though it seems tough, I think your No. 1 solution sounds most reliable. Thanks, man. @DNGR S PAPERCUT: It’s very hard timing, so I don’t know why it’s hard to understand my difficulty. Based on the hitboxes, both Upkicks and Mk should work, but despite my good timing (I hit Reversals often) I seem to lose out what look like hits. I’ll just take Blitzfu’s advice, because I should have at least beat the splash once by now with Upkicks. Thanks for the help guys.


#13

Chances of MK upkick hitting a splash is slim to none. The invulnerability on that version is too short. If you want to upkick, you need to wait till the very last moment before the splash connects, then you need the 6 frames of invulnerability to make sure chun doesn’t get hit before her upkick comes out. Chuns first red hit box is down where her knees are, so just 4 frames of invulnerability will not let gief get close enough to her hit box before his hitbox stuffs chun. Even with 6 frames of invulnerability, that is still super hard. only top level players can pull it off.

just being able to do an upkick reversal doesn’t mean you will hit him, you need to delay till the last moment to actually have it work.

http://www.golden-songs.com/ssf2st/st/chunli/#Up Kick

don’t be a smart ass. if you think you are right, give me frame data and hitboxes to prove it.


#14

LOL, DNGR S PAPERCUT is absolutely right.

You need to understand what is going on instead of just saying “I tried but it didnt work”

Upkick’s hitbox is so low that it will miss unless the splash is hitting very deep.
Reversal means nothing if the hitbox is not connecting.

Standing forward’s hitbox is much higher than upkick’s and it’s easier to connect.

If zangief is 1 frame safe jumping you, there is nothing you can do.
If it’s < 4 frames, roundhouse up kick, < 6, forward up kick, < 10, short up kick, > 7, standing forward.

If zangief is spamming splashes, it’s most likely not safe jump timing. In that case you just have to know whether standing forward will have enough time to come out. Otherwise if you have charge, decide which up kick version is most appropriate (see above).

If this is not making any sense to you, then you need to go read more and understand the basics of this game.


#15

Some good recent fights, rage mail and praise mail:







#16

@DNGR S PAPERCUT: I’d like to know from where you inferred sarcasm in my last post. I simply have never beat splash with upkick. Not once, and I play a lot. Dumb luck would have me win once through sheer odds, logic dictates, but I haven’t. I’m not disagreeing with you, but I guess I just must be incredibly unlucky… <div><br></div><div>@newegg: So you’re telling me there is nothing I can do against a perfect splash loop, this “1 frame safe jumping”? Then could that be why nothing works, like I thought? </div>


#17

Chun?  Just neutral jump RH or short from the get go and beat Gief for free; stuffs lariat and almost everything else.  Can be very difficult for Gief to deal with from my limited shitty experience.


#18

When he’s splashing there ain’t time for those neutral jumps, AFAIK. And I know that the tip of my foot has lost to his knuckles during a far clash of nj. RH VS lariat. But it definitely can be useful, I am still trying to find when to use it and when it loses. But before I had learned it Zang annihilated me harder…<div><br></div><div>On another note, I’m learning to deal with grapplers better so this topic has contributed to that, so thanks again to everyone. Now I need to work on VS Vega and Balrog…Balrog seems to stuff Upkicks and clash with me on fireballs often. Vega…I am not sure WHAT he’s doing but I end up in shreds. Moar halp plz</div>