Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan


I’m pretty sure the only people who come close are Meta Knight and Wario with all his options available to him


but at least they are punishable when they recovery, sheik is basically unpunishable.
Add aerial recovery to bouncing fish and remove that stupid wind box. Her needles could use a range nerf but meh. Her recovery being unpunishable is beyond stupid for someone whose outstanding on the stage. She should have a flaw but the character doesn’t have any.

ZSS needs her Up B KO power nerfed. It KOs way too early at some points. other than that, she’s pretty okay. (maybe nerf initial knock back from Up b or something)

rosalina is okay. she plays a lot like marth in melee in that she is best with platforms. Maybe lower the KO potential of uair but that’s about it. She’s really good and that’s okay because she’s not stupid.

most characters are fine. a few of the other characters should be buffed. give samus her old nair back. please ninty


Decided to get on For Glory with the new secondary for like, 15 minutes out of boredom last night, just to “see”.

I think I get it now. The more of this I get the more I want to play her.

I don’t agree with this.

To even land the thing and make it a kill move at low percents, you have to get the Uair string, which is pretty specific. It was more of a risk when Halberd and Delfino were widespread but nowadays they usually end up banned… AT best you might get a super-early KO on T&C.

And even then, unless done spot-on or at the right spacing, its usually DI-able, either to fall out of it or keep from dying from the last hit.

And even then, it’s her reward for landing the string, getting a grab without going into her 500k recovery frames, or getting smash setups.

For missing it at any decent percent, she basically dies.

It seems pretty balanced to me. I don’t think she really needs a nerf anymore than Rosa would.

At this point, I’d say just continue to make buffs and small adjustments to the rest of the cast, maybe tone Sheik down here and there. Pretty much the pace they’ve been on so far.


it should still be a good KO move. the problem i have with it is when it KOs are 60-70% for no reason. it’s initial knockback is incredibly strong causing some weird shit to happen.


ZSS is the least “scary” top tier to me.

Yeah, she’s got kill setups, but she has to work so hard for them, I’m surprised anyone does well with her at all… I guess people haven’t figured out how to DI the up b or avoid the downsmash/Flip Jump kill setup.

Rosalina gives me more trouble… I see ZSS and smirk to myself, thinking, "You won’t kill me until 200%… You gon get this WORK."


You must not fight a lot of competent ZSS players then


Eh, yeah but that’s kinda’ the point. And she won’t even get those kinds of KOs unless it’s from like, the top of the screen. It’s not like you can just do it out of nowhere and it kills all the time. Nairo and a lot of the top ZSS’ make it look easy but it really isn’t.

Po is right on this one, she requires knowledge of a lot of setups to get that.

Well there’s very few of those anyhow. Most do what I did and just flowchart her. =p

I don’t think that validates nerving her Up+B though, that’s my point. It’s like, “good ZSS players make this move work so well… it needs to be nerfed.”


I can’t even understand that. What kind of an insult is “Spamless”? I mean, you weren’t being even half as irritating as some other Rosa players I’ve seen.
(that’s not a dig at your play, just that you weren’t constantly abusing Usmash/Dash attack/Uair like some)

Also, I love that you played Frog’s Theme when you decided to go Greninja. Major props in both regards.


I’ve fought some good ones…
Even the ones that beat me, it feels like if I played more solid they wouldn’t win.

Lemons don’t give a fuck about a paralyzer shot, and she’s not as fast as redacted, so I can actually react to her approaches.

The biggest problem I have is lining her up for a killshot, but they usually get desperate for a grab, or get forced to Flip Jump into an ass whooping eventually.


Zero Suit Samus is faster than Sheik. Faster run speed, better jump AND moves faster in the air.


i’m more scared of ZSS than sheik. Same with rosalina.


Dood, believe me, I have the same question lol! I actually play her too aggressively sometimes and don’t use Luma enough (Mood pointed this out when we played, thus I’ve been working Luma in more lately).

Even stranger is in the full match, D3 KO’d me first at *65%. *I literally had to play hit and run to avoid losing.

Rosalina is one of those characters that can do no right now, all because of a few sets all the way back at APEX 2015 (which to me were entertaining but you know, I;m weird, I like footsies and zoning and stuff).


I thought they had identical run speed?

Nope. ZSS is in fact slightly faster.
The do have the same walk speed though.


Nope. ZSS is faster in regards to movement, both in the air and on the ground. The only thing that’s identical is their walkspeed.


If you’ve got the frame data, you can do comparisons for moves as well


ZSS is perfectly fine. No nerfs necessary.


ZSS doesn’t have retarded ass, lagless aerials and an unfuckwithable projectile, nor does she have a ridiculous recovery or fast ass grab.

So her speed is not an issue.


PA wants ZSS buffs so he can win =)


While checking various movement speeds, also noticed something here:

Mewtwo has the third fastest air speed now. That isn’t so surprising.

Roy has the fourth fastest. ROY. Just… what?


You crossed the line Po. This is complaining about Sheik, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I have also screencapped the evidence, so you can’t get away with it:


You will be keeping your av for an extra week; until 12/12, to be precise. I recommend a penalty in the league if he does not comply this time.