Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan


it should still be a good KO move. the problem i have with it is when it KOs are 60-70% for no reason. it’s initial knockback is incredibly strong causing some weird shit to happen.


ZSS is the least “scary” top tier to me.

Yeah, she’s got kill setups, but she has to work so hard for them, I’m surprised anyone does well with her at all… I guess people haven’t figured out how to DI the up b or avoid the downsmash/Flip Jump kill setup.

Rosalina gives me more trouble… I see ZSS and smirk to myself, thinking, "You won’t kill me until 200%… You gon get this WORK."


You must not fight a lot of competent ZSS players then


Eh, yeah but that’s kinda’ the point. And she won’t even get those kinds of KOs unless it’s from like, the top of the screen. It’s not like you can just do it out of nowhere and it kills all the time. Nairo and a lot of the top ZSS’ make it look easy but it really isn’t.

Po is right on this one, she requires knowledge of a lot of setups to get that.

Well there’s very few of those anyhow. Most do what I did and just flowchart her. =p

I don’t think that validates nerving her Up+B though, that’s my point. It’s like, “good ZSS players make this move work so well… it needs to be nerfed.”


I can’t even understand that. What kind of an insult is “Spamless”? I mean, you weren’t being even half as irritating as some other Rosa players I’ve seen.
(that’s not a dig at your play, just that you weren’t constantly abusing Usmash/Dash attack/Uair like some)

Also, I love that you played Frog’s Theme when you decided to go Greninja. Major props in both regards.


I’ve fought some good ones…
Even the ones that beat me, it feels like if I played more solid they wouldn’t win.

Lemons don’t give a fuck about a paralyzer shot, and she’s not as fast as redacted, so I can actually react to her approaches.

The biggest problem I have is lining her up for a killshot, but they usually get desperate for a grab, or get forced to Flip Jump into an ass whooping eventually.


Zero Suit Samus is faster than Sheik. Faster run speed, better jump AND moves faster in the air.


i’m more scared of ZSS than sheik. Same with rosalina.


Dood, believe me, I have the same question lol! I actually play her too aggressively sometimes and don’t use Luma enough (Mood pointed this out when we played, thus I’ve been working Luma in more lately).

Even stranger is in the full match, D3 KO’d me first at *65%. *I literally had to play hit and run to avoid losing.

Rosalina is one of those characters that can do no right now, all because of a few sets all the way back at APEX 2015 (which to me were entertaining but you know, I;m weird, I like footsies and zoning and stuff).


I thought they had identical run speed?

Nope. ZSS is in fact slightly faster.
The do have the same walk speed though.


Nope. ZSS is faster in regards to movement, both in the air and on the ground. The only thing that’s identical is their walkspeed.


If you’ve got the frame data, you can do comparisons for moves as well


ZSS is perfectly fine. No nerfs necessary.


ZSS doesn’t have retarded ass, lagless aerials and an unfuckwithable projectile, nor does she have a ridiculous recovery or fast ass grab.

So her speed is not an issue.


PA wants ZSS buffs so he can win =)


While checking various movement speeds, also noticed something here:

Mewtwo has the third fastest air speed now. That isn’t so surprising.

Roy has the fourth fastest. ROY. Just… what?


You crossed the line Po. This is complaining about Sheik, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I have also screencapped the evidence, so you can’t get away with it:


You will be keeping your av for an extra week; until 12/12, to be precise. I recommend a penalty in the league if he does not comply this time.


her aerials are pretty lagless. no they aren’t as low as sheik’s but it’s not far behind. her projectile is scary as fuck as it allows almost any follow up. her grab maybe slow, but that range is nothing to scoff at. you can’t roll away from it like sheik. her recovery is just about as ridiculous as sheik’s. she has stupid KO power on top of her crazy speed and set ups. at least sheik has a hard time KOing and mostly has to rely on reads to get those KOs


At most tweak the top tiers a little bit but nerfs usually mean less fun. Just make the other characters more fun.


She doesn’t need buffs either. She’s perfectly fine.