Super Turbo Subtleties (EXPERT)

Some tricky questions for you. OK here goes:-

  1. When using new ken, and doing the knee grab throw: if you hold up towards while it is bashing away, then, when it releases, you will jump (the instant of release as you’re continually holding towards-up), moving with your opponent as they fall back to land on their feet. You’ll notice that for some opponents you will land behind them and for others you will land in front of them (I was trying this in training mode on the DC). It seems to be consistent, i.e. against a non-CPU opponent who is not moving you will always land on one side or other other, but always the same side. BUT, and here’s the but, if you are playing a e.g. CPU controlled opponent that is fighting back, when the grab releases sometimes this rule breaks and you land on a different side! i.e. you don’t land on the same side every time. This is annoying because, for example, a nice trick on opponents that you cross up on knee bash release is to do a dragon punch when you land (hopefully they will be blocking the wrong way). I don’t understand why this happens! I mean n.ken will jump the instant of hold release because you have the joystick jammed in that direction, and the cross up (if any) happens in mid air (so it’s not like they land and move back/forwards to mess you up). WTF?!!

  2. This is and old strat, but I never fully understood it. Basically it involves a whiffed moved immediately followed by a throw. e.g. ryu whiff standing jab, throw. Is the jab just there as a fake, or does it somehow make it harder to reverse? Since if your opponent is holding a block direction, doing a move will make them go from normal to block stance and execute some block animation frames, does this prevent them doing anything for a tiny fraction of a second? Basically what I am saying is while the ‘moving from not blocking at all to fully blocking’ animation is coming out, can you cancel that animation into ANY move? e.g. low jab, dp, etc. Or are you frozen? If so, I can see how it makes reversing harder.

  3. Finally a question for Apoc. It’s about Vega’s ‘bounce’. When he goes off the wall and lands there’s a bounce where his feet leave the ground, I guess he is in an unable-to- block state at this point. So therefore vulnerable. But Apoc also mentioned that Vega bounces when he does a normal jump. I looked closely and he does kind of bounce, but his feet DON’T leave the ground. It’s different. So what is the significance of this? Why is it any different from other characters, all of whom cannot block for a few frames when they land (no trip guard)? Is this not just a different animation for the same bit of gameplay logic? Apoc, you said that O.Sagat can wait until Vega lands, THEN tiger uppercut! If it’s on the no trip guard frames, fair enough, but I don’t see how this is special. Unless Vega’s no trip guard frames last longer than other chars or something.

OK, well I hope some of you out there can answer these for me :slight_smile:



Ok, I can help you with this one. As you know, you cannot throw an opponent who is in block stun, block animation yes but block stun no. The catch here, of course, is that they both look the same. If, for example, you perform a deep crossup with Ryu and attempt to throw ur opponent the instant you land you will fail because the opponent is in block stun. However, by performin a s.jab (which whiffs) ur opponent will have come out of block stun by the time the jab finishes (still in block animation tho) and ur free to throw straight away.

So basically, this technique is for ‘brain freezing’ ur opponent. By whiffing a jab ur attempting to make the opponent think they’re being hit and by the time they realise u haven’t touched them oops… u’ve already throw 'em!

It’s just a disguise and nothin more. They can cancel the neutral -> block animation at any time. If they know ur goin to whiff they can dp/jab ur ass, they’ve got a ton of time. I think this technique is more prevalent in other street fighters anyways as ST throws are instantaneous and ticks are therefore more effective compared to CVS say, where u can see a tick comin a mile away.

For real!

I would also like to know the answer to your first question. I believe it has something to do with mashing and makes you release them weird…

It also happens with other characters… I like to do the Ken thing with Hawk. Rh throw, hold up-towards, etc. and it happens to me too.

Maybe thats why you can sometimes jump when you kill them with a hold?

Thanks for the responses guys.

chaosflare: i thought that was the case that it was just a jedi mindtrick, but remember reading back in one of those old guide books (decent one, written by sunnyvalers) that this tick was ‘almost impossible to reverse’. So, I thought there might have been more to it.

marvelscrub: the mashing thing sounds like a possible explanation - the mashing of the character trying to get out of the grab at least. Perhaps by mashing they alter the time during the knee bash animation that they are released, but you yourself have to finish the animation and therefore jump a varying amount of time after. Thus you could potentially not be close enough in the air to get the cross up. Your T.Hawk thing would be the same (it’s a grab right? not his normal throw?). I guess this must be it.

Oh well, I guess we will never know for sure. Lots of ppl have read this thread but only 2 have responded! I’ll just accept that it’s a toss up and try and spot which way I will land. Being inconsistent will fuck opponents up too - combo time!

Apoc - do you have anything to add to this discussion? I was rather looking forward to your input.

As for Apoc showing up… I believe that if you post it, (and it is intelligible and interesting) he will come. I believe that what you have asked is intelligible and interesting, therefore eventually he will post.

In the meantime, I will post…

I believe that it is logical that Vega’s no trip guard frames could last longer being that he has an advantage over all (I think) characters in ST (as far as speed of, in relation to height of, his jump).
-The Matrix has you-

So if it is true and Vega has that setback due to his advantage, then it would make sense that Apoc would mention the Uppercuting of Vega once he lands, because there is a bit more time to do it due to the “bounce”… Or its just something that Sagat can do to Vega and everyone else in ST. But its hard to imagine that shit working effectively against a Zangief or Fei Long.

Please correct me if I’m wrong Apoc.


I think s0nicb00mb0y is on to something there concerning question #1. It’s possible that the change in timing is due to the opponent releasing themselves from the grapple (by struggling) as opposed to the move simply finishing naturally. Being released early may slightly change how quickly the player recovers. This could explain why a CPU opponent can cause the delay while a static opponent doesn’t.

Also, about question #2, I was always under the impression that this tactic did have a special priority, but only with certain characters. I seem to remember this being a popular strategy with Guile quite a while ago (whiffing a low strong, I believe), and it always sounded to me as if whiffing the punch gave Guile a guaranteed throw or glitch-like invincibility. Of course, if it WAS a psychological strategy then I guess this means it worked on me. :bluu:

While I’m at it, my take on question #3 is this: maybe the little bounce after the landing simply means that Vega is actually still vulnerable during this time, so Sagat players don’t have to risk wasting the first (and most painful) hit of the Tiger Uppercut by trying to hit Vega before he lands. It’s a weak thought, but it’s all I can think of without more expert opinion.

knee bash release depends on when the grapple ends…similar to honda’s bear hug will determine where they will land…keep an eye on the opponent’s sprite and see where it releases. Play person vs person and mash out and see if you can mash out when the two sprites are close, vs when they are farther apart.

lookit me, posting hawt st knowledge…

Old Sagat’s uppercut doesn’t hit multiple times so that’s a moot point.

I’ve got a little question that boggles me…

Why is it that sometimes characters “fall” out of combos? You know, when you do jump in, d.forward, FB, yet they fall into the air off the d.forward and you only get a 2-hit combo… They fall into the air and land on their feet (not a knockdown). Or d.short xN and they just fall out after a few hits… Doesn’t happen often at all, but i’m sure some of you must have experienced this.

I’m guessing they’re tring to jump and you combo them just as they’re getting off the ground, and during the combo they release into the air? :slight_smile: that still makes no sense to me. One of my SF friends says he knows how… but I think he’s just full of shit. :slight_smile:

well, I did notice that happening when in training mode I set the dummy to jump constantly, and was trying to combo him on landing. So I think that’s it.

The tactic was mentioned for SSF2: Against a jump-in, throw a c.strong at the last minute. This causes the jumping opponent’s attack to whiff, then Guile throws them when they land. I don’t know if it was guaranteed though, just effective. Same with the whiff s.jab -> throw. UNless there’s more to it that I don’t know about…

Crazy good stuff.