Taking a cue from music games, a real help to beginners in SFIV Dash


#1

At the risk of eating a serious amount of bad rep for starting a suggestion thread I am going to put this out there anyways.

For the seasoned players who have played online, how many of you have beaten the piss out of some poor new player only for them to immediately bounce out of the game?

How many of you have friends who aren’t real big into SF who will never play you because they know there isn’t a chance in hell of ever getting a round off you?

I would probably say too many times and way too many friends. It is discouraging to the new players and daunting to level up when the play level they see is so high!

That’s pretty hard to get around even with handicaps, which I am pretty sure no one actually uses online. To get the point quickly, my idea is to have different skills levels programmed into the game so people can master the system before advancing to higher skill levels.

So real quick before I get into the explanation, make a beginner level where you can only perform standard moves and throws, that’s it. Next at medium level, players can only perform specials and tech’s. Hard level would introduce Supers and EX’s and finally expert would allow players to use Ultras and FA’s. If you want to play in beginner mode, you can only fight beginner opponents with the same moves available to them. So even if a new player fought a veteran player, the veteran would be limited to just standard moves. Your opponent would always have to be in the same mode as you. Experts can target practice beginners with the full arsenal of moves.

Now let me explain what I mean and why I think this would work. Many of us, when we started playing SF in the arcades or SNES years and years ago, we started playing our friends with really only used standard moves because that is all we could wrap our heads around. Most likely we started off with Ryu, Ken, Chun Li or Blanka because they moved around the best and we could win with just jumping around. But we got a really good solid foundation of the game because of just the standard moves. I remember being able to beat the CPU without a single special on the hardest level because of this foundation. Many wouldn’t think to do that relying on specials they haven’t mastered. With the new crowd of people who joined the fighting game scene with SFIV, do you think any of them really spent the time to get that foundation? This would help.

Please think of Guitar Hero. When I first picked it up I had to start on beginner. I looked at expert and just laughed. But I was able to get some immediate gratification when I started at the beginner level. This would allow new players to get some gratification in SF as well. Imagine you had to learn GH at the expert level right away. I would probably have never played Guitar Hero again. Imagine a new SF player coming across some of the best players we have here online and get instant ass raped. That person is probably not coming back for a while if ever.

But if this system were in place, the new player in the beginner level can compete because their opponent can only beat them with the same move set that they have available to them. They can’t get destroyed but a monstrous combo that only Jibbo and Yeb can perform at will.

Oh yeah, and at expert level we can tone down the fricking damage scaling. If I am going to pull of a seriously hard combo I want some pay back thank you. There are too many instances of a combo be a lot more damaging if the parts were broken up.

Anyways that the idea. Feel free to flame or harsh upon it all you want. I thought it might be a good addition for games moving forward. Start sounding off or closing this thread now.


#2

excuse me? Nobody here has friends.

But seriously, it sounds like a leveling sort of system that probably can’t work since there’s most likely no way to program how skillful a player is based on mind games, combos, burning meter off a fireball into crossup/teleport, or other sort of advanced tactics. sure it’s POSSIBLE for these things to be programmed and labeled as “more technical”, but as far as a placement system goes, I don’t think it sounds legit for the machine to do that to you.

Besides, nobody would have fun in beginner mode, and a lot of basic combos end in special moves. Do you think a person would have to unlock “expert mode” via “hard mode” via “normal”? Because that gives “grinding” a whole new definition.

And what would be done to online play if you don’t run the risk of finding somebody better than you? how would you learn anything?

I used to think Championship mode worked like this, except G1 is turning into a scrub haven already.


#3

Guile would rock beginner’s mode :slight_smile: Standing fierce for the win.


#4

G1 is complete scrubs, people who have just bought SFIV, or people who have made alternate accounts and are trying to learn a new character


#5

No all modes would be available at the start. I don’t want to ever unlock big pieces of the game. The SFIV character unlock in my eyes was kind of retarded, especially since I have both the PS3 and 360 version, I hated doing that crap twice.

I also don’t think people would want to hang at beginner for long, everyone loves firing off hadokens as soon as they can. Nowdays if I see someone paying Rockband or Guitar Hero on Beginner I feel brain dead. No one wants to stay at that level and yeah, playing it will suck real soon. But this way they can fight opponents with a more level playing field, challenge people at the beginning with less of moves to worry about. Some people might just stop at hard level though and it would be fine for them. Also, people can graduate to more fun, more difficulty levels.


#6

I sure hope Capcom has you on their development team for SF 5

:coffee:


#7

I think the game is good enough with different difficulties in challenge mode/arcade mode. People who want to get better, will get better. People who want to mash out, will mash out. And the only guarantee you’ll get when playing online, is that you’ll face people playing the game for different reasons.

If your friends think you’re too good and don’t want you using special moves or doing combos, then abide and mentally make that decision. Doesn’t have to be a special game function to tell you what you can and can’t do. Leave it to handicaps and challenge mode.

At first when I read the topic title, I thought this was going to be a suggestion relating to combo timing, and there I might have agreed with you.


#8

What makes you think beginners aren’t going to want access to ultras and all?
Do you really think beginners go into this game with the mindset: “Okay, let me figure out how to use all my normals first. I’ll worry about specials and ultras later.”

Have you all forgotten about the flowchart Kens already? They play this game because of the specials and ultras.

Even if beginners wanted to learn with this system, it doesn’t make any sense.
Forcing players to learn about normals in a vacuum is idiotic. They just get wrecked when they ‘graduate’ up to specials because they don’t know how to deal with an opponent when he has access to tiger knees or hadokens. They have to learn the game all over again.

Hell, like some other posters alluded to, many of the characters play completely differently with and without specials.


#9

I find that most people drop the game or become disinterested because it’s a game that requires upkeep. You don’t pick it up 2 nights a week and wreck face, there’s too much practice involved. Many would prefer to play a game with more instant gratification.

Furthermore, this idea may potentially have the opposite of the desired effect; when you place people into brackets that limit their movesets, you’re telling them “You’re not capable of using these other tools or they’re just too hard for you, so you don’t have to bother playing people with them” – which may not be what you’re actually trying to say, but I could show you a massive population that would take being categorized into little sections like that insulting and embarrassing (mostly embarrassing).

I get where you’re going with it, people enjoy games like Guitar Hero because there’s easier versions and they can slowly progress, but most of the time in Guitar Hero it’s just you, it’s less frustrating because someone isn’t actually beating you at anything, a lot of people can pick it up for a few minutes, play a song they like on easy or medium, be satisfied that they did and put it down.

Translate that to normals-only SF4? Would you be proud of beating someone up with just normals? Maybe, you probably would be if you had your entire moveset available to you and you willingly forewent using other moves to prove how superior you are. But not when they’re turned off for you.

The other possible problem is that, as I jokingly said before, characters like Guile who have exceptional normals would seriously dominate that playing field. His normals practically define him even with all of his tools, they’re that good. Standing Fierce has a low start up, high damage, can counter-hit into itself, fantastic range, and low danger to yourself. His step kick is a pretty sweet poke, his backhand is fantastic, his crouching fierce is up there, not being able to punish his double sweep would be sort of annoying, and he has one of the better target combos. That list goes on, really.

I think a better solution would be to just introduce more comprehensive training modes. A training mode where you could only beat a CPU off reversals, another for throws, another for normals, another for crossups (briefly explain what a crossup is, tell the player to do one on a CPU that’s walking into a corner, then when the hit connects a window would pop up and explain what occurred, tell them to explore other moves their character can do that could cross-up and see what else is possible).

Couple this along with a series of tips and tutorials on all of the characters (interactive guides that explain what’s so good about certain moves).

I know it sounds very kiddy-ish, but I think it would go a long way. The experienced players can obviously ignore them and just enter the normal Training Mode with all the customizable features it has, but for those much less experienced, a unique training mode that really explains the basics of the character goes a -long- way.

And on top of all of that, more comprehensive “challenge” modes. Normal combo trials, crossup combo trials, counter-hit combo trials, yadda yadda.

The key to getting people to stick with the game is full disclosure, completely explain how the game works and how they can utilize it. Explain what counter-hits do precisely, how to perform a reversal, how to tech a knockdown, how to tech a throw, what EX’ing moves does, how FADC’s work entirely, etc etc.

I guarantee they’d find more people are interested when they feel like they’re actually able to make progress with their character outside of playing against other people.


#10

I’m with you on the idea of the game fostering the development of players to intermediate level beyond the implementation of a training mode and a mode that tells you to do moves/combos. But I don’t like this limiter idea.

I’d prefer the game have a walking tutorial that goes deep and explains the intricacies of the game in layman’s terms with visual aid like in [media=youtube]-ET5xqUNuOg"[/media](preferably starring Dan).


#11

First thing I thought of when I read the title was like a rhythm based training mode to help with links.

Disappointed. :[


#12

I knew this would take some explaining. All modes are available from the get go. If a beginner wants to play in expert mode he is more than welcome to. You can play Guitar Hero at any level you want when you buy the game. But if you want to fight an opponent with some limitations to what they can pummel you with, this is an OPTION.

And yes, you would have to learn the game more once you DECIDE to go to medium or hard. Like adding a new button on the guitar, you’re gonna have to learn how to use it.

Did I happen to mention that I do NOT intend these modes to be MANDATORY. Play where ever you want at whatever level you want.

Also I do play with a handicap with friends. Either I am only allowed to play them inebriated or straight handed (I’m a cross handed player). The point wasn’t also that my friends weren’t a major issue. That’s too specific. More to the point that if all I knew what to do was jump and kick and flail an ultra and I met Diago online I might get a bit discouraged that I wasn’t able to get a quarter round off of him. Chances are I wouldn’t learn very much from my beating as well since I can’t wrap my head around what just happened to me yet.

But if Diago (totally hypothetical) decided to hang with the beginners for bit and play at that level, the beginner might be able to retain more of what happened in the fight. Like “Oh crouching fierce beats like my jumping hard kick”.

BTW did I mention that the choice to play in any give mode was OPTIONAL?
I don’t even think beginner mode would be used other than little kids or older gamers who never played games. But medium and hard modes might come is as good places for players to start to level up.


#13

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1138/1245884836650.jpg


#14

I have a friend who is extremely inexperienced with any game we play. He never, ever, wants to play against me in Halo, Super Smash and especially SFIV… What I’ve done, is have him come over and just hang out and have him play arcade mode. He has slowly progressed to the point where he beat it on hardest. Now, while still very inexperienced, he tries to play me when ever he can to learn. He’s even invested in a fightpad and later on an arcade stick. I encouraged him to play by cheering him on, giving him pointers and compliments. All without mopping the floor with him. :wink:


#15

don’t be ridiculous, a seasoned player would destroy beginners even with only access to normals.

Also, Zangief’s medium punch would keep half the cast from being able to do anything.


#16

apparently. But the game isn’t intended to be played where there are basic/advanced/expert modes which merely dictate what moves you can do aside from challenge mode. And I guarantee you no little kid will want to play Street Fighter and not do, or ask how to do a fireball. This game wasn’t meant for little kids to become pros by starting off with normals and throws. it was meant for anybody to play however they want and can; Again, aside from challenge mode where there are those specific limitations/requirements.

And while SF has its own intricacies that makes it comparable to guitar hero, I don’t think it shares the same reason and method of playing. Therefore, I’ll say again: people who want to get better, will get better. And people who want to mash out, will mash out.


#17

Like, no doubt, I totally get where you’re coming from. But I think a more successful solution would be in-depth tutorials that explain game mechanics, then afterward an even more in-depth tutorial that explains your character.

For instance, if you chose Ryu, it would go over the Hadouken, what it’s good for, what each punch version does, if you can combo into it, explain the basic c.mk xx hadouken poke. Then later the EX hadouken, note that it knocks down, explore that it can even lead to some devastating juggle combos etc. Go over things like mixing up hadouken speeds in an attempt to bait an unsafe jump (as the tutorial would have already explained that you can recover faster from certain hadoukens).

Go over all of his links, explain WHY that link is the way it is, etc (in other words explain a one frame link to the player, explain that they take a lot of practice but can be extremely useful).

Followed by an even more in-depth tutorial that explores very advanced tactics like wake-up games, mix-ups, kara-throws, the more difficult juggles, footsies, and actually tell the person why you want to be doing these things. These are all things Capcom knows about, it’s not some mystery to them, and if they’d like to not only appeal to a wide audience but retain that audience (aside from the hardcores) then they really need to implement a progressive training system. They took a shot at it with the outrageously unhelpful hard trials and showing how many different ways you can land your ultra, but it wasn’t a very good one.

Explain to people that they don’t want to become predictable, that they don’t want to repeat the same patterns over and over or other players might catch on and start punishing them for it. As silly as it sounds, people legit NEED that explained to them or else they just won’t know. I had someone jump at me until they died. Literally I didn’t move and only used crouching fierce punch, an entire round of just getting c.fp’d out of the air and they never once learned.

Quality of players would go up if Capcom put time into teaching people the basics of the game overall, it occurs in any title there is: look at Counter-Strike, game’s been out for like 10 years, at this point strafe shooting, nade spots, controlled bursts, etc are commonly known, but I recall a time where few people played like that and those that did decimated the game. The quality of the average player has increased as the knowledge of the better players became commonplace amongst all players.

If everyone approached online SF4 after spending some time learning about mixing up their moves, playing unpredictable wake up games, you’d see a lot more interesting games and higher quality games from the get-go. Those that didn’t go through the training who gets stomped by someone that did and asks “How do I stop that?” will be told to go check out the comprehensive training program SF4 provides them that teaches the basics of the game.

The tutorials would emphasize exploring your character, and really only explain the concepts and give a few examples, but thoroughly emphasize that those are only a few examples of ways to say… mix-up or apply wake-up pressure, or just 1 of your many attacks that can cross-up etc.


#18

Although I understand your desired effect with this system I feel it’s still flawed to the point where the player really won’t learn jack in the end unless they put in the effort. So limiting their moves will not make things any easier for someone who doesn’t care (they’ll just be annoyed) and anyone who seriously wants to learn how to play will look at it and go “I want to learn how to play the game, not be limited moves…”

I think it’d be better, as Rio stated, to have a training mode where it taught you how to play various characters. I’d love to see a trials mode where it teaches you how to do combos and certain moves with a particular character as well as explain the basics.

Something like the CPU does a combo. Then it asks you do to the combo. If you mess the combo up it tells you what you’re doing wrong (“Too much delay on xx”) (“didn’t do xx fast enough”)

Then step it up a notch, have something where players can record combos themselves and save/send them to other players to help teach them how to play a particular character.

What do you think of that?


#19

There’s a lot to respond to here so I am going to break it up a bit. Not arguing, jus tstating my intentions.

Motivation to level up and get to expert level.

You would be proud you got a win. When you are first starting, a win is a win. I remember getting my first win in the SF2 arcade by spamming jump short, c short X2 and getting a dizzy. I fricking flipped! As a BEGINNER any win was the shit!

Then beginners start off with Guile. Fine. Eventualy when they DECIDE to go to a higher level they will see that relying on Guile’s standing fierce won’t do much against Gen’s wall dive or Chun’s flip HK. Then the now medium player can start using a flash kick, true. But they might also think to explore other characters and their specials that would counter those moves even easier. If they were to start a new character to start combating specials then great. Even more understanding and foundation of the game. Of course this is all speculation but wouldn’t this all be a nice OPTION for beginners?

Oh and BTW, I would also limit the CPU to the same move sets specific to the levels. People can chose to learn against the CPU in the same fashion.


#20

I fear you greatly overestimate the patience and attention span of the average video game player these days. SF2 would NOT do well in today’s instant gratification market. :sad: